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Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
Yes, they should. Helltalons/Hellblades are THE chaos demon aircraft 100%  100%  [ 10 ]
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Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?

 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:41 pm 
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Helltalons / Hellblades are the Chaos aircraft, they fit perfectly and are what you'd expect an very chaotic and demonic army to use, instead though Chaos Marines have the proper aircraft LaTD get Thunderbolts and Marauders - sorry, what? Why?? This seems madness to me!

If we were dealing with a just turned to chaos army then yes, possibly (though even recently turned Vraksian Renegades have Hellblades/Helltalons), but LaTD are a very chaosy turned army, chock full of demon engines, and demon aircraft fit right in. True LaTD armies can sometimes borrow some imperial kit in their lists, but a lot of the time they don't and it tends to be rather outnumbered by the chaos/demon stuff anyway.

In-case anyone possibly comes back with 'ah but Helltalons and Hellblades are only made on such and such demon world in the Eye or Terror, the other demon engines could be produced locally on the planet' I'd come back with 'really? - you think the cultists can do an A-Team, popping into the a shed for 5 and rolling out with a Lord of Battles?' - look how advanced and demonic a lot of the demon engines are; it's pretty obvious to me they'd actually be produced in The Eye of Terror and shipped / summoned out to the cultists. Or consider the Silver Towers, which come from Prospero itself - if the list has these then Hellblades/Helltalons coming from a particular planet isn't a problem. Anyways; even if you do believe them to be made by cultists on planet, if they can make demonic aircraft like the Doomwings and Firelords then it should definitely be possible for them to make the general chaos aircraft as they look a simpler design.

One other reason is that there is otherwise a lot of cross-over in the models between Chaos Marine and LaTD; defilers and the various demons can be used in each. If someone wants to play chaos, but doesn't collect imperials, he would at present need to shell out for extra aircraft models, rather than being able to use the same for either, which he might prefer to do.

To me having them with Thunderbolts and Marauders is as bonkers and boring as if the main Ork list were only having these as their aircraft 'cos maybe some Death Skullz or Blood Axes nicked imperial planes or some spurious reason. At present I plan to ask my opponents nicely if they mind me using Hellblades/Helltallons, or just not use aircraft if I'm playing Khorne/Nurgle, but this doesn't seen an ideal solution, nor the way the list should be.

I'm setting up this poll to see what people think and in the hope that this might get changed  :devil:





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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:08 pm 
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As the LatD army list is pretty much a Daemonworld Army straigt out of the Eye of Terror on a killing spree instead of a Cultist and Traitor PDF Army i voted for yes.

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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:14 pm 
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The Vraksian case is what swings me. Vraksians are much less down the path to chaos than LaTD, yet they already get chaos aircraft. LaTD should definitely get them in that case.

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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:53 pm 
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Any of you voting no care to elaborate on your position at all? I'm not sure I understand it, unless it's just inertia, but if the Chaos Marine aircraft with updated to their proper current ones it's doesn't seem unreasonable to ask for the LaTD ones to be too.


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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:09 pm 
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At risk of just being accused of being contrary today ;) I'll say why I voted no.

The Stigmatus Covenant list represents an uprising (i.e. 'arose on the Mackan system', page 3 of the army list) so it makes sense to me that they have access to a mixture of IG kit, if anything I don't think that they should have all the Daemon Engines they get access to (hence why my LaTD army is Nurgle themed, I can see them building Plague and Contagion towers, but not Hell Knights).

If it were a Blood Pact army then the Chaos Fliers are ideal, as the rebel population of a planet I think the kit that would be locally available is more appropriate.


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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:14 pm 
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The justificatio nfor all the Daemon Engines is that they used warp portals etc to summon them. So actual Chaos aircrafts are not out of the question if you accept this.

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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:57 pm 
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Read the fluff of the LatD list. Thunderbolts and Marauders are included because the list represents a planetary uprising, and traitor armies might have access to them.

I've got nothing against adding more options, though. Is there a reason the Hellnouns can't exist in the same list with the traitor aircraft?


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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:20 pm 
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I agree some traitors would use Thunderbolts and Marauders, obviously, and heck if both options could be available everyone could be happy, but if we do stay with just one or other for the list I definitely think the default choice should be the actual chaos aircraft once we’ve got to a level of chaosness personified by the LaTD list.

It being a planetary uprising and them having demon engines from elsewhere (through spacecraft and or demon portals) is not mutually exclusive and it’s the way things panned out on Vraks, which could be considered indicative or typical of other worlds/conflicts.  

The background for both Tzeentch and Slaanesh demon engines firmly links them with Heresy era origins and them coming from off-world, same with the Defilers too. I’d argue, as I did in my first post, the same is more feasibly the source of the Khorne and Nurgle ones too, though you can imagine them either way. With a good number of definitely off-world units in the list and a lot of maybe ones the uprising can’t really be said to be purely using technology stolen or created on the planet Mackan so that line of argument falls down.


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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:41 pm 
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I voted yes but don't have time to elaborate why: tmw maybe!

But in the meantime I will note that I just use hellblade/talon models as my t'bolts in latd any just go with 'counts as': works for me!
R>

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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:43 pm 
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I´m with the No/Planetary Uprising crowd.

HellTalons and HellBlades are made on Chaos Forge worlds deep in the Eye, using advanced tech, while the various daemon engines are local constructs powered by summoning&sacrifice.

T-Bolts and Marauders are readily available, surely much more than "proper" Chaos aircraft. Imperial air forces turning to Chaos is so much more likely...

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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:53 pm 
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You know what would be really cool? Mixed imperial/chaos plane formations.

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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:03 am 
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The army seems to be a pretty advanced chaos cult, if it where just a case of recently traitor guard/PDF you could just use a standard IG list (giving comissars mustaches and calling them 'enforcers' etc).

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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:37 am 
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I agree and the moustaches are clearly important for them to twirl evilly  :smile:

Since the origination of Demon Engines is being questioned lets go into some examples and detail:
The Slaanesh Knights and Titans come from House Devine on the planet Moloch, which turned to Horus and Slaanesh during the Heresy
Silver Towers come from Prospero, the now destroyed homeworld of the Thousand Sons.
The background text in the LaTD list itself for Doomwings state it is “a small interceptor. As deadly and manoeuvrable as an Eldar fighter these machines are dreaded throughout the sectors near the Eye of Terror.â€Â


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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:43 am 
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The Harbringer and Hellblades are those models that make me want to play Chaos in Epic, but I don't want to play spiky marines or simple traitors with some different tanks (Vraks). I want cultists, mutants, chaos spawn etc.

So yeah, put them in!

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 Post subject: Surely LaTD should have Helltalons / Hellblades?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:52 am 
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Quote: (hello_dave @ Feb. 04 2010, 05:09 )

At risk of just being accused of being contrary today ;) I'll say why I voted no.

The Stigmatus Covenant list represents an uprising

:agree:

I always thought that they were not established and merely an uprising as well.

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