Not sure what your point is, frogbear. ATSKNF is very cool, granted, but it's compensated for by the smaller formation sizes available to Marines, not so much the higher points costs.

The only time ATSKNF is "crappy" is when Marines rally from broken as, without a leader, there's no way to clear all Blast markers, even if it's just a single Marine unit, due to the "double Blast markers".

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Over the years there's been quite a few calls to make Land Raiders WE's and as many trials,there are some advantages but in practical game terms it makes them much worse.

They have a harder time when it comes to shooting,especially sustain firing as they block each others lines of sight and are rarely in a situation where they can all fire(on sustain) unlike now.
They are far,far worse in assaults. Again as they block each others lines of attack and opponents find it easier to clip or just engage them from angles to minimise FF attacks back. Also with the increased costs needed they become a prime target for the opponent to try to take out of the game with these sort of tactics.

If you want them to be more sturdier then give them an Invulnerable Save.
Or *shock* 3+ Reinforced Armour!  

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The thing is... that's probably a stat reflective of their actual toughness...  

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I´m with the 75 points/FF4+ crowd.

For me, this is also a matter of style: Epic should be, well, EPIC, and lots of tanks and infantry sure fit the bill. Space Marines mounting lightning assaults in their heavily armoured Land Raiders, brakthroughs by massed tanks, yeah!

I just found myself checking whether there was a LR formation in the SM list at all. There is. I could not say for sure, this says it all, it is a non option. People struggle to justify adding them to Devastators, murky theories on the value of Teleport and integral Rhinos are offered.

It´s so wrong.

IMO most transport MBT options are overpriced, LRs in the SM and BL lists, Falcons with Eldar. Added to already expensive infantry formations, the added firepower, protection and mobility just does not compensate the loss of activations and spiralling cost. Full formations of Aspect Warriors in Falcons or SM/CSM in Land Raiders are unheard of in tournament lists, even adding 1 or 2 MBTs (where lists allow) seems rare.

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I was being sarcastic. It is a great skill.

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Frogbear is responsible for...
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@frogbear: You need this:
http://02d9656.netsoljsp.com/SarcMar....home.do

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Apparently I'm told Space Marines can field units of predators and vindicators too...

It seems to be a general problem with marine armour, 75 points seem reasonable for a land raider as a transport but why it is when you buy them in a formation alone they cost 87.5 points each... you get charged extra not to use the transport capacity? Great.

The "Marines are supposed to use thunderhawks" argument only goes so far, these units exist, they're in the list therefore they ought to be worth using. Its akin to going to the IG list and deciding to charge them 200 points for each valkyrie because 'Guard are not supposed to be fast*"

*(I'm aware this is an incorrect statement, thats why I'm using it)

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Formations need the slight bump in price to account for the fact that they are an activation on their own, not just an upgrade to another activation. It's the reason why Ork formations see price pro-rating as you go from normal to big and big to 'uge.

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Squats 2019-10-17

So you're saying that Landraiders need to cost more when taken independantly? Otherwise people might actually think about fielding them...

I see the logic but not the application if you know what I mean.

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"A good orbital insertion is one you walk away from, a great one is where they can use the Thunderhawk again." Roboute Guilliman.

No. I'm saying that because a land raider formation can be given an order, lay a BM on an enemy formation it fires upon, and all of the other things formations can do that it needs to cost more then just the sum of 4 land raider upgrades.

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Squats 2019-10-17

So you are actually saying that Landraiders need to cost more when taken independantly.  

Even though they already cost so much that people don't field them?

I'm aware that seperate formations can do different things thanks, but if I want a unit to do that I'll buy a different formation that isn't stupidly overpriced and the Land Raiders get left on the shelf. Which is a shame because it means no-one fields Land Raiders. Which is my point.

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"A good orbital insertion is one you walk away from, a great one is where they can use the Thunderhawk again." Roboute Guilliman.

Anyone seriously support this?  

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