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[Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons

 Post subject: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:53 pm 
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That's a fair point.

There are then a couple things to consider:

Where is the root problem? Is it the slow firing nature of the weapon, or the fact that there are two slow firing weapons on the same unit, complicating bookkeeping? I think it is the second.

Is this layer of bookkeeping any more tedious than BM management or DC management? I'm not sure it is. It is just one more thing to keep track of, and only affects a few lists heavily.

How are Plasma armed units usually played? Are thay fired peicemeal, or salvoed to acheive a killing blow?

I personally would prefer to save them for a decisive engagement.

Is the weapon balanced at this point?

I think it is, and that removing Slow firing would make these weapons potentially unbalanced. In order to not affect points across many armies, these weapons would need to be downgraded. Halving the chance to hit would be the easiest route to take. AP6/AT6 would actually be slightly better than AP5/AT5 Slow firing, due to the possibility to get increased hits overall. This does not really fit the plasma cannons 40k stats, though.

I think there are only three options to keep the Plasma Cannon balanced:

1) Leave it alone
2) Remove Slow Firing, leave the AP5/AT5, and review the costing of each unit that has acces to it.
3) Remove Slow firing, and reduce the Cannon's stats to maintain balance, probably to AP6/AT6.

I think we can rule out #2, or any option that significantly affects the overall performance of the Plasma Cannon, as it would force pricing adjustments to virtually every Imperial list, a huge undertaking.

#3 would be an option, but would sit poorly a la 40k stats.

That leaves little option.

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 Post subject: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:59 pm 
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Current Plasma Cannon has AP4+/AT4+ Slow-firing
not AP5+/AT5+ Slow-firing

And the "feel" and fluff about the Plasma Cannon is that it is a heavy infantry killer and quite poor against medium to heavy vehicles and that it is prone to overheating.




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 Post subject: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:30 pm 
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Personally, I'm not inclined to change any published stats.

Seriously, though, has anyone ever really run into problems with the bookkeeping on Plasma Cannons?  I can't recall ever having issues.  Demolishers are generally "shoot it all... NOW!"  Maybe once or twice we've had situations where some were out of range when the others chose to alpha strike, but that's pretty easy to track.

The only slow-firing bookkeeping I've had consistent problems with are artillery, when you have to track which units have fired versus which would be suppressed.

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 Post subject: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:34 pm 
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Neal: The issue is more with varient lists which include more demolishers or have infantry with plasma cannons.

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 Post subject: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:43 pm 
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But have there been real problems in play?  If there have been problems is it any worse than slow fire arty?

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 Post subject: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Feb. 01 2010, 16:43 )

But have there been real problems in play?  If there have been problems is it any worse than slow fire arty?

With the Dark Angels there have been problems I believe, and the minervan list has taken the choice of using 30cm AP5+/AT5+ plasma cannons regardless.

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 Post subject: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:37 pm 
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There are no REAL problems. It's just very annoying.
And as for artillery: Each artillery unit usually haso nly one shot. So i just turn them around 180° if they have fired.

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 Post subject: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:21 pm 
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Yes, the main trouble is the 2 plasma cannons on the Demolishers.
Instead of that :
"2x Plasma Cannon, 30cm, AP4+/AT4+, Slow-firing",
why not write this :
"Plasma cannons, 30cm, 2x AP4+/AT4+, Slow-firing" ?

The firepower is a little less flexible, but there is less bookkeeping.
The Demolishers can then use the same "I make a 180° turn when I'm reloading" solution than Manticores.




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 Post subject: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:47 pm 
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Uhmm..the Plasma Blastgun ist 2x MW2+ Slow-firing and even here you are allowed to shoot only once and have one shot left for the next turn or shoot twice and reload next turn.

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 Post subject: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:33 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Feb. 01 2010, 18:47 )

Uhmm..the Plasma Blastgun ist 2x MW2+ Slow-firing and even here you are allowed to shoot only once and have one shot left for the next turn or shoot twice and reload next turn.

That's due to a note on the titan actually.

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 Post subject: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:16 pm 
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Hmm you're right! Opens a can of new possibilities  :agree:

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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:26 am 
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Rise Thread! Rise!

So since there was talk about Plasma Sentinels in the Warhawks IG list and Minivans still have different stats and I know the Dark Angel list is still floundering and people still have issues with other instances. I thought it was good to try at this again.

So IIRC BL (and Others) think AP4/AT6 with NO Slow Fire should be adopted for all Plasmacannons and Plasmaguns.

The excuse with changing Offical stats is kinda out the window with all the Tinkering going on with the IG and SM list IMO.

So Discuss!


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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:15 am 
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I've always found the Slow Firing to be a real hassle to track. Currently Plasma Cannons are AP4+/AT4+ SF, and Plasma Guns are AP5+/AT5+. Are you proposing altering both of them to the same profile? Plasma Guns are pretty much fine as is I'd say, but having the Plasma Cannon be AP4+/AT5+ without Slow Firing might well reflect their capabilities. They are (as Black Legion said a year and a half ago) weapons designed to take out hard infantry and light vehicles. Currently the Plasma Guns give the Stormtroopers a greater-than-average ability to destroy light vehicles, and I would prefer not to see that go away. On the other hand, there's no reason the Plasma Cannons should be any better at destroying vehicles than the PlasamGuns, since their main advantage tends to be the increased area of effect, not an increased intensity.


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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:21 am 
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Is there a reason why something as trivial as this isn't simply implemented to help players be less "annoyed" with the game? Balance? Is the 1 extra shot a turn per weapon that sticky a problem? Surely costing things correctly afterwards if needed isn't much of a problem?


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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:04 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Is there a reason why something as trivial as this isn't simply implemented to help players be less "annoyed" with the game? Balance? Is the 1 extra shot a turn per weapon that sticky a problem? Surely costing things correctly afterwards if needed isn't much of a problem?

Ummm Matt are you for or against the change? I can't tell...lol ::)

I assume for ? Maybe since you did start the thread about getting rid of Slow Fire altogether?

@Signal: In 40k there the same weapon so why not have the same stats in Epic? Granted maybe the Cannon should have 2x shots as its a blast plate and the gun is just a hit? Also I was just going with the BL proposal to be unify if the Plasma guns are ok with everybody then I guess just change the Cannon?


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