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Stalker
Include the Stalker - it provides a different AA option 100%  100%  [ 22 ]
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Stalker

 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:26 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ Jan. 29 2010, 15:03 )

Quote: (hello_dave @ Jan. 26 2010, 07:33 )

What I'm not in favour of is 2 ground units with AA, because then everyone will have stalkers in their mobile formations and Oblits in their garrisons and teleporters, arguably a worse situation than we have now.
The more I think about it the more I am coming around to the Stalker and an AA-less Obliterator as a good solution, I still think that the Armoured Company (which then becomes one of the AA-carrying formations) needs looking at though, does anyone take them on a regular basis?

With respect Steve, while you have taken a 'compromise position', opinions are also changing (see above). Furthermore, because the air-game is so abstract, I am not sure how playtesting will provide further evidence either way:-
- The in-game dynamics of Oblit AA vs air is already known (reducing power does not really affect this)
- Having Oblits with AA does not really influence the choice of other AA (Hellblades)
- Arguably, including the 'AA Stalker' actually reduces the need for Hellblades.

Rather than insisting on playtesting, could we get people to post lists that they would use giving reasons why they have chosen the relevant formations / units and how they would play them.

Thats fine Gavin people are welcome to show their choices - but I also want to see playtesting. For example how is the army affected with just stalkers on the ground and retinues therefore having to take rhinos etc.

What I want to avoid is more 'oblits shouldn't have AA look at 40k' etc, etc threads like this has started to become.

I'm not sure why reducing the power of Oblits isn't worth testing - I'v tested them 3 times now and found the AA stats a step forward - it makes them a lot less dangerous especially on the disengagement move. The only other test I've seen is hello_dave who thought that they had gone from broken to annoying.

Frankly if nobody but myself, hello_dave and, to an extent with crossover units, Frogbear is prepared to test then a lot of the more ambitious changes are non-starters




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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:32 pm 
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Barring Winter Warmer and one other game (a 5700pts per side "breakout") I've been too busy for gaming this month. Hopefully I'll be able to get some games in soon though.




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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:34 pm 
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For me the main issues with regard to obliterator AA are threefold.

1) Infantry status combined with an brilliant armour save and fearless means they can hide and survive better than just about any other AA out there.

2) 3xAA5+ is far too good. AA6+ helps here, but it's still nigh on as good as a hunter. Should it really be that good?

3) The background issues, namely that obliterators can't morph into AA weapons.



Has there been no discussion of the Desecrator, or whatever the proposed AA Defiler varient was called? For me, that's the best place to have an AA platform in the list.

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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:02 pm 
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I actually thought the stalker was a re-branded desecrator till it was pointed out to me in the pub last night that it wasn't.

I would prefer to see the desecrator in use than oblits with AA or a stalker tank.

To go along with a change like this thoughI think that the armoured fm needs a tweak in terms of points values.


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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:00 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ Jan. 29 2010, 15:26 )

Frankly if nobody but myself, hello_dave and, to an extent with crossover units, Frogbear is prepared to test then a lot of the more ambitious changes are non-starters

I'd just like to add to this Steve that i've taken part in the vast majority of all of Hello_Dave's playtests as the opposition.

This includes the old tac-coms rules that included the defiler varient for AA and the battle posted in the current round of changes.

Although Oblits with AA 6+ are not broken they are IMO still too good.  3 x 6+ has the same chance to hit as a Hunter and multiple oblits push this up into firestorm territory with none of the disadvantages such units suffer i.e paper armour, small fm size, none fearless etc.  Although they do slow infantry fms down a bit, this is ngenerally compensated for by Retinues being able to garrison and drop pod onto the table, as well as terminators being able to teleport.  When you factor in the chaos fighters it gives an army that is unbalanced in terms of composition (Few/no AVs) and has a shockingly devastating AA coverage as well as the ability to take the fight quickly to the enemy via drop pod and teleport.

As previously stated what i find most disturbing and annoying about oblits AA though is the effect it has on army composition.  It becomes predominantly infantry and/or war engines which leaves a bad taste in the moth tbh as the opposition and renders a lot of firepower null and void which hardly seems fair.

I enjoyed games with the old defiler varient list but did find the armoured companies that hosted the desecrator to be a bit underpowered for their costs.

These experiences combined with discussions with Hello_Dave, after battles and over a pint have lead me to hold my current opinion.

I can see where your frustration comes from with lack of playtesting but surely what's come before and has been tested and reported on is still valid (Thinking of the desevrator here)?


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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:09 pm 
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If it were a straight choice between a stalker and descrator I'd go for having the desecrator in the list, whatever the stats.

An AA defiler varient is just much more interesting than a renegade hunter.

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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:22 pm 
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The problem with the Desecrator is it has a very niche role.

It's not fast enough to be attractive to add to Mech. or Armour formations, and not as attractive as Obliterators for adding to infantry garrisons (adds an AV to inf formations).

So the Stalker would work to promote Armour and Mech. formations, at the least. The Desecrator would only slow those down.

The Desecrator is only really attractive for adding to Defiler formations, IMO.




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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:31 pm 
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Couldn't you have both options to increase the variety?  A defiler varient would surely be better for infantry garrisons than a tank because it has walker and who knows we might actually see some defilers being taken.


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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:39 pm 
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Should AA not be a niche role?

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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:48 pm 
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Quote: (stompzilla @ Jan. 29 2010, 19:31 )

Couldn't you have both options to increase the variety?  A defiler varient would surely be better for infantry garrisons than a tank because it has walker and who knows we might actually see some defilers being taken.

Your position assumes that Obliterators should lose AA entirely, rather than be downgraded (still further, if nessesary, perhaps to only having less AA shots than regular shots).

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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:53 pm 
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How very observant of you E&C  :p

I always find it's a good idea to suggest alternatives rather than simply being negative all the time.  I've pretty clearly explained why i don't agree with oblits having any AA capacity.





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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:57 pm 
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What role should Obliterators have if they are not to be AA-with-mega-benefits then?

MW FF beasts? (easily justifiable, it must be said)

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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:01 pm 
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The problem the arises though that you have a retinue that can't be transported (due to Oblit) but must take rhinos to shield its stalker. Probably then you will have 4 strong pred+stalker formations hiding as your AA whilst oblits with MW FF become a must have with termies or in drop pods.

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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:13 pm 
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As has been suggested, by Hello_dave and myself, why not increase the nos in the pred fm and make them cheaper.

Do oblits really need MWFF?  I mean really?  Are they not good enough as it is being 4+ RA with a 2+ FF, MW CC attack, Fearless, inv save AND all the extra firepower they bring?  A simple point re-adjustment would resolve any slight imbalances.

As I see it, retinues can do what everyone else does and garrision with stalkers or incorporate them into mech fm (Which a better armoured fm would help with).  They could also ride along as garrisons with chosen fms if they so chose.

The only other alternative I can think of is to make oblits LVs with walker (Which isn't so bad - just look at broadsides) but this does little to encourage more Avs into chaos lists.





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 Post subject: Stalker
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:16 pm 
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MW FF units in of themselves are not a problem, as long as they are pointed appropriately. Few complain of Fire Dragons or Land Speeders or Zoanthropes as being broken-powerful, and you'd likely be looking at one or two Obliterator units per formation, rather than 5+ MWFF attacks.

But I agree, it would likely incentivise Mech. armies with Stalkers (not nessesarily a bad thing) or taking armour formations with Stalkers (again, not nessesarily a bad thing). It depends on how fond you are of the BlackLegion's current "Infantry Horde" style and how far towards promoting a more generalist style you wish to go.

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Do oblits really need MWFF?  I mean really?  Are they not good enough as it is being 4+ RA with a 2+ FF, MW CC attack, Fearless, inv save AND all the extra firepower they bring?  A simple point re-adjustment would resolve any slight imbalances.

Without an AA shot, their stats are left looking pretty bland, and lacking in character.

So I would propose giving them a new niche (MW FF + ranged shooting), rather than the niche they'd end up with (Terminator unit with slightly better FF attack and slightly worse CC attack).




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