I'll weigh in:

- I agree that Hammerheads (all 3 types) need either a slight stat buff (of some form) or a minor points drop.
- I agree that Crisis formations could do with a minor points drop.
- I agree that Stealths need a minor points drop.
- I agree that AX-1-0s are awesome.
- I agree that the other two Tigershark aircraft are not worth taking, and need either points drops or re-statting. I still don't like that there's no specific model for either type of Tigershark.
- On "Command & Control" I think they're fine. The Scout rule should mean that you're only exposing one recon unit at a time to enemy fire when markerlighting the enemy, whilst the rest of a formation hides behind terrain. Thus making it hard to destroy the whole formation in one go.
- I agree with Ryan that a high activation count (via taking at least 3 recon formations) is important for the Tau. They don't have the resilience to take a load of big formations and try and win a war of attrition.
- I think Broadside suits are brilliant.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Yep. I only ever expose 1 tetra and that does not stop them being wiped out. Most forces have some form of fast mover/engager and those are the forces I usually see destroying my recon troops - in the tourney this happened every game but one and that is because I was marking infantry troops that had activated in a later game turn.

I appreciate all the theories on how to use them, I do, but in real game life they don't amount to much when your recon troops are within 30cm of the enemy. They're far too close to be "safe" in the manner you mention. At the end of their movement they are not the super-speedy markerlight formation that people seem to think they are - they become stationary. They are far too weak and exposed. If they get lucky on saves then you're set for markerlight fun, but this isn't the norm - enagagements really hurt them the most. Sure they are fast but you have to actually stay put once you've moved and that just means your opponent can move to shoot them or move to engage one in a clipping assault that eventually destroys the formation by losing one unit.... Doing this early game means you lose 1/2 - 1/3 of your firepower for the rest of the game. Doing this mid-late game means you have 1/2 - 1/3 less firepower at the beginning to middle of the game and also let the enemy start picking off your forces that much easier because you aren't putting the hurt on them. Trust me, I've tried many different approaches to Tau over the years and the latest list lacks as I mentioned in the OP.

Ryan (Jstr19) doesn't need to make armour saves. If he's putting Recon units within 30cm of the enemy, then it's either an end-of-turn gamble, or more likely, the Recon formation is acting as part of a Coordinated Fire action, and two or three more Tau Formations are inbound on their way to unleash hell.

Okay, after hell has come, then he starts making armour saves.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

So when a 3rd of his army is unleashing hell on a single formation of yours, what is the rest of your army doing?

I assume this answers my question?  

Well as said, Ryan's armies tend to be more 11-12 activations, than the 8-9 you're using.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I will add the total killed points v total's killed.
Total Tau Killed
Op Player Game Points Objectives Killed Army
Adrian Matt 8 2 1325 Eldar
Jayden Matt 2 0 173 Marine
Walter Matt 4 0 625 Guard
Troy Matt 6 1 750 Guard
Andreas Matt 8 2 1233 Eldar
Total 4106

Total Enemy Killed
Player Op Game Points Objectives Kills Army
Matt Jayden 8 4 1638 Marine
Matt Adrian 2 0 250 Eldar
Matt Walter 6 1 350 Guard
Matt Troy 4 0 750 Guard
Matt Andreas 2 0 0 Eldar
Total 2988

Win was worth 8 points.
Tie breaker win 6 points
Draw 5 points
tie breaker loss 4 points
Loss 2 points.

Over all standings were.

Andreas Kammel Biel-Tan 49 Points
Adrian Stacey Biel-Tan 45 Points
Walter Spivak Steel Legion 37 Points*
Mark Sheppard Space Marine 37 Points*
Phil Lehunt Biel-Tan 37 Points*
Troy Anderton Steel Legion 35 Points
Matthew Dobbs Tau 33 Points
Bye Black Templars30 Points*
Zoe Brian Orks 30 Points*
Jayden Barr Space Marine 22 Points


* = Count back done on objectives taken.  
These scores also include battle scores (see below) + softscores, of sportsmanship, painting, and army design.

the Tau were the only army to get full army design points.

Jayden Barr 12 0
Zoe Brain 20 3
Bye        20 6
Mathew Dobbs 22 5
Troy Anterdon 24 4
Phil Lehunt 26 5
Mark sheppard 26 6
Walter Spivak 26 8
Adrian Stacey 34 14
Andreas Kammel 38 14
Player        Points Objectives

Out of all this, the Tau smashed some Marines, (with lots of landriaders) and that is the only result I would have expected.  For Tau, and I have been reading all this, 12 - 14 activations, how big is somebodys biggest formation...

Just looking at one of the lists that these Tau played, one steel legion had 14 tanks, 13 Russ, and 1 Hydra. if you had 14 activations you have to spend every single formation just to supress this one.  then the other 10+ strong leman russ formation smashes you.   If I were the Gaurd player I would start doing my happy dance to see 14 small formation on the deck. I know what my Air would hunt, and I know that I have two saves on everything, while the Tau don't. giving the Gaurd player twice the chance at living...

Dont think more activations is the answer. Although E&C is I think heading in the right direction. Really you shouldn't have to choose an army with 14 activations, if you dont want to play that way.


cheers

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"The Dice are killing me!"

What do you think Honda?

For armour comparisons on the Tau tanks, I looked at both the HH, LR and Land Raider stats in their respective 40K codices.

LR 14 13 10
HH 13 12 10
Land Raider  14 14 14

Should I take it a 14 means RA save in Epic? Or can agility be a blended abstraction to give the HHs RA? Maybe a 5+ RA even?

I think I'd still prefer to adjust the weaponry for the tank and make it hit better.

in 40k Hammer Head have "only" front armor 13, but it has some nasty upgrades to make them almost indestructible in my experience. i dont play 40k for some time now, so i dont remember everything but what i rememeber very clearly is upgrade wich make HH like it is in cover all the time giving it a 4+ cover save! and then some upgrade to reroll damage table when it is hit i think....so when i was facing Tau with hammer heads, i never opened fire on them. it was a waste of firepower.

but on the other hand, they dont put out so much firepower. one shot with rail gun or ion canon and when close enough, two burst canons i think? so...in my opinion, HHs should take a boost in resilience, not in firepower

so...translated in to Epic...i think HHs should have 5+ RA or 4+ armor and 6+ inv. save or may be a -1 to hit when firing at them like they are in cover?

or...just make them cheaper...

I hear your comments Dobbsy. Our resident Tau player is now an Eldar player...

The TacComms Tau ethos that Tau replace Engagements with more Firepower just doesn't hold up in the real world.

Crossfire is a nice bonus, not a game-winning grand strategy.

Without a unit that can Engage well (cough Fire Warriors cough) the Tau can never deliver the killing blow (Mont'ka?), you can dance around the enemy and take various Double Firepower shots and trade fire- but if you cannot push the enemy from a position and/or break them decisively in one action, you cannot consistently win games.

Engagements are the most elaborate (i.e. interesting and tricky to set-up) and most decisive way to force a resilient enemy formation to go away.
Trying to break a resilient formation with Firepower alone is far, far harder and takes several turns- turns you simply can't afford to have them shooting back.

As long as we see this ethos religiously adhered too, and no Engagement units, Tau will struggle and the sheer weight of Firepower on their stats will reach silly proportions to compensate.

Back to the top- our resident Tau player dropped them for Eldar, as they did all the Skimmer, fast tricks Tau did but had a punch at the end in the form of a decent Engagement.

I will comment as soon as I can get the time to put my thoughts together. Probably in a day or so. Real Life ™ is quite hectic at the mo.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

I would note that a Tau player came 2nd at the latest UK tournament (Winter Warmer), and was only beaten by a player using the original Black Legion list.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

He did well. What was he up against and how many games was the WW?


Yep I'm considering it too. Even have the army in a box.

Ok, first off, let me say that I’m trying to address this discussion in a timely manner, which means I’m cutting and pasting, responding, etc. quickly, so if I am brief it is because of time, it is with no intent to be harsh, comment on playing styles, opponents, etc.

Note: I this took longer than I thought, so pardon typos, poor English, etc.

Basically, I have a happy face on. So with that being said, let’s roll.



TBH, I’m struggling with your list in regards as to how to use it effectively. I am going to make a couple of assumptions (HHs are fusion HHs) that you can correct me on, later, but the only formation that has any real range to it is the Broadsides. Everything else shoots 45cm or less, barring seekers.

We already know that the Tau are not an “engageâ€Â

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment