I agree, 50pt Vindicators (and 75pt Land Raiders) have been available to the most competative Epic players in the world for a year now, and they're not ruling the day.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

*bump*

Are you ready to make the call now Hena?
Siege has been waiting on your word.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

*2nd bump*

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Free? That's good.

85 points and FF4+?
80% of posters in this thread wanted 75 point Land Raiders with the original FF5+ stat.


IIRC EpicUK went for:

50 points / 250 points
25cm speed

Personally I'd prefer to see Walker on it too, as the EpicUK one is still not all that great.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Disappointing. I was thinking the change to 75pts was pretty much a fait accompli.

What is your personal reasoning on this Hena, seeing as it goes against the Epic UK list and the majority opinion in this thread.

Do you still feel that there will be costing issues with the Chaos list and that FF5+ doesn't model the Land Raider well, despite all the counter-points with agreement? (I agree on the second point, and feel FF4+ for 75pts wouldn't be game breaking, or even all that good)

I suppose the biggest issue is the non standard costing. It isn't actually a noticeable change from 100, as it's the only 15 point increment in the list.

For example, if I take 1, then I have 15 points spare and effectively a 100 point Land Raider.
If I take 2 then I have 30 points spare and so have effectively 175 points for 2.
At 3 I have taken another single Land Raider for 100 points as it's 3 for 255, so effectively 275 for 3.

If Land Raiders were felt to be overcosted at 100 points I don't see why the idea is to lower the cost of every second one to 25 points. It's not a big difference, I couldn't see myself changing my devastators into a pair of land raiders just because of a 25 point reduction in price.

Yes, the first land raider you buy for the devastators is better then the second one. But the first one wasn't worth 100 points before and it shouldn't be worth 100 points now.

While as I said I'm not going to die from this, it is rather odd to ask people for their opinion and then don't pay attention to it.

I'm not saying that you don't have good reasons, Hena, but we're probably entitled to hearing them.

Obviously, I'm not Hena, but there's more to it than EUK and this thread.

Historically there has been substantial support for better LR stats because LRs are supposed to be the Marines' awesome MBT and they're just... not.  There has been support for LR pricing based on pairs so as to eliminate the benefits of min-maxing.

Also, something not brought up in this thread, if you price LRs at 75, that pretty much necessitates changing the Predator pricing as well.  The LR is still clearly better than a Predator so pricing them at the same cost for upgrades is ridiculous. Land Raiders at 75 and Vindicators at 50 means the Predators should be at 65 or so.

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Neal

In the Blood Angels list, we literally did that (price tanks in pairs), to whit:

2x Vindicators - 100pts    (50pts each)
2x Predator Destructors - 125pts (62.5pts each)
2x Predator Annihilators - 150pts (75pts each) (and they could justifably be 125pts per pair*)
2x (FF4+) Land Raiders - 175pts     (87.5pts each)


This doesn't affect the Core list as Predators aren't available for upgrades.

And as I noted, in variant lists you can literally charge for pairs to lower prices for tanks by non-25 ammounts.

* So as not to reach 300pts for four tanks (known to be underpowered even with the bonus that comes of having an extra activation, let alone without it) and so as to conflict with a theoretical FF5+ 150pt Land Raider pair.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Regarding the first paragraph, they actually do cost more than Black Legion ones. In the only two instances that Land Raiders can be taken, either Rhinos (at 10-15pts, depending on value assigned to Rhino ATSKNF), or Teleport (arguably 50pts, so 12.5 per) are already expended. So they're already costing close to 100pts as it stands now. Is ATSKNF really worth a 33% increase in cost? Especially at the cost of activations that this upgrade provides?

Predators would be an issue, yes, but as E&C pointed out, Predators aren't an upgrade choice. And even if they were, there's still the matter of the absorbed costs. 75pts to upgrade, or 75pts to add, are two different costs.

Regarding the second paragraph, I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know what it's in reference to.

Morgan Vening

Indeed, the 75pt Land Raider replaces the 10pt Rhino, whilst an additional unit (like a Predator or a Vindicator) doesn't have to "pay" this extra cost.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Just for the record I'd definitely prefer FF4+ Landraiders, whatever the upgrade cost.

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Come to think of it, I like having the only one option in the list not being a multiple of 25 as a design decision. And I like making Land Raiders deservedly more awesome.

I guess I'm on board with this after all.