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Necron Change Document

 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:36 pm 
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Quote: (corey3750 @ Jan. 19 2010, 16:25 )


If you can do that, and force people to expend activations to bring themselves into a position that's advantageous to you, and you can't stop it, how does that make for a good game? It creates a situation where the portals have no downside to them.  I don't see that being a good thing.

I agree with this completely.

Luckily, I don't think that we have to go that far.  I think the real issue is what a reserve formation is allowed to do on a Hold action after a failed activation, not activations in general.  The issue could be addressed specific to that situation so as not to allow a general "off board activation" situation.

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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:41 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ Jan. 20 2010, 11:29 )

I edited my original statement (go back and re-read).  I never play Eldar that way so it would make sense for Necrons to be consistent.  

It's just one of those things that really never came up for the Necrons before.  And why would it have?  Rallied formations would shed their BMs so rare is the time they would fail an activation.  Even when they did the Necron player would do anything to avoid being stuck off board and moved it into the battlefield anywhere they could.

So problem solved.

hehe.

That's the problem with forums like this.  Posts can change ever so quickly, and without you even noticing!

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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:43 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Jan. 20 2010, 11:36 )

I agree with this completely.

Luckily, I don't think that we have to go that far.  I think the real issue is what a reserve formation is allowed to do on a Hold action after a failed activation, not activations in general.  The issue could be addressed specific to that situation so as not to allow a general "off board activation" situation.

However, as I understand it, a Hold Action is a valid action to CHOOSE to give to a formation, not just the default action of a failed Activation Role.

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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:44 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Jan. 19 2010, 11:36 )

Quote: (corey3750 @ Jan. 19 2010, 16:25 )


If you can do that, and force people to expend activations to bring themselves into a position that's advantageous to you, and you can't stop it, how does that make for a good game? It creates a situation where the portals have no downside to them.  I don't see that being a good thing.

I agree with this completely.

Luckily, I don't think that we have to go that far.  I think the real issue is what a reserve formation is allowed to do on a Hold action after a failed activation, not activations in general.  The issue could be addressed specific to that situation so as not to allow a general "off board activation" situation.

So, what do we allow then?  A 0cm move as to remain off board?  It seems to be the only choice if you eliminate regrouping.

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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:00 pm 
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As I understood the origional portal intention (for the Eldar) when Jervis answered this question, any off-board formation (aside from aircraft and space ships) that activates MUST end it's activation on board.

So if you fail an activation, your hold action MUST be a move, and it MUST bring you on the board.  It sucks, but it's part of the price you pay for the portal advantage.

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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:48 pm 
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Quote: (corey3750 @ Jan. 19 2010, 17:00 )

So if you fail an activation, your hold action MUST be a move, and it MUST bring you on the board.  It sucks, but it's part of the price you pay for the portal advantage.

I don't have a problem with this in theory, but in practice people have blocked gates so that entering the board is impossible without an Engage action.

That's obviously much less an issue with Necrons where there are more portals and almost all of them have their own ZoC but we need a universal answer.

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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:02 pm 
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no offense but this "must move a formation on board" is stupid. it's one thing to miss an activation roll, but then being forced to stick the formation right in front of your opponent (where the portals generally are) to get shot to pieces!? i have no problem loosing a game and i NEVER blame a lost game on die rolls, but this would be just that, loosing a game from a missed die roll.


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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:12 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Jan. 20 2010, 12:48 )

I don't have a problem with this in theory, but in practice people have blocked gates so that entering the board is impossible without an Engage action.

That's obviously much less an issue with Necrons where there are more portals and almost all of them have their own ZoC but we need a universal answer.

Indeed.  And that was Jervis' intention when he made that call.

A "blocked" portal would have to be forced with an engage action if someone put the portal within their ZOC.  It gives an opponent a tactical option, since there is always a portal that cannot be destroyed, and is an objective marker.

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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:19 pm 
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Quote: (mnb @ Jan. 20 2010, 13:02 )

no offense but this "must move a formation on board" is stupid. it's one thing to miss an activation roll, but then being forced to stick the formation right in front of your opponent (where the portals generally are) to get shot to pieces!? i have no problem loosing a game and i NEVER blame a lost game on die rolls, but this would be just that, loosing a game from a missed die roll.

it's a simple case of you roll the dice and take your chances.

Just like if you stick a formation in a bad position in order to try to get an early attack in on a critical target on the next turn.  If you lose initiative, or fail activation... :shrug:

Fortunes of war.

This is one of the issues I couldn't remember off the top of my head I was talking about when the whole "remove all blast markers" discussion came up.

As for "coming right out in front of the enemy" why is that nessesarily the case?

Sure, most of your portals will probably be close to the enemy since they are mounted on Monoliths, but I would hope that most Necron players would take a Tomb Complex for just such an occasion.  Step out from there, and the next turn you can always synchronize portals to move them into attack range on the following turn.

Again:  Yes it is harsh, but that's part of the balance for having such a safe means of getting your forces on the board, where and when you want them.

You don't risk the BM from teleport, you do it as part of an activation rather than at the begining of the turn, and you aren't subject to being shot down by AA.  

I think the risk that you'll have to come on the board as your one and only action should you fail an activation role isn't too much to ask in return for all that!

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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:25 pm 
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no, harsh would be to keep the formation off the board so they can't do anything. meanwhile the monolith that's now right in front of the opposing army gets shot to pieces. that's harsh.
having the above happen along with your infantry is unfair.
as far as the tomb complex..... you mean the blitz objective that the enemy is going to try and hold.... not too safe an area for most of the game.


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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:40 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ Jan. 20 2010, 13:21 )

Quote: (corey3750 @ Jan. 19 2010, 20:19 )

Again:  Yes it is harsh, but that's part of the balance for having such a safe means of getting your forces on the board, where and when you want them.

I would have no problem with staying off board with 0cm move. The thing with "you must" is that is then meets "you must not". So portal is covered by ZoC. Now you try engage from portal and fail. What happens? You should move out, but it's not possible. Thus allowing 0cm move would solve this.

well, in that instance, your Activation would be just wasted.  You try to engage, you fail, so you do nothing.  

Harder to have happen with the Necrons, since it would only happen if all your availible portals were inside the ZOC of enemy troops.

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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:30 pm 
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A forced move rule will not work.

Let's pretend that you have one portal and it is in the ZOC of a formation of scouts.  You activate the formation for an assault and fail.  You've burned your SC re-roll earlier in the turn and you are now faced with three options that the rules allow:

1. Shoot.  Nope that won't work.
2. Move.  If you move through the portal you end up in enemy ZoC and violate the rules.
3. Regroup.  Remove BMs and its over.

This is one example off the top of my head but I am sure there are others.  Forcing somebody to move will create problems.

We don't force planes to fly onto the board and face an onslaught of flak, do we?  If the player wants to stand down he can. What Jervis intended is to prevent people from burning activations off board, but we're still not providing a viable solution in this case.  Are you going to force a formation into the range of a Leman Russ formation on Overwatch?  What your proposing sounds like a forced maneuver like chess and that doesn't fit into Epic IMO.

If a player doesn't want to activate his formation off board, he can choose to activate other formations until it is his last choice.  At that point if he doesn't want to activate he just declares that he is done for the turn and it is over.  Of course that means that we need to explicitly state in an FAQ that certain activations are forbidden when offboard. But this isn't as easy as it sounds.  There are implications to each choice.

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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:35 pm 
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Aircraft that fail stand down (ie: do nothing), what's the problem with slapping this mechanic on off-board formations that fail to activate? They don't hold, they just fail to activate. You can re-roll it if you've got the SC re-roll still, otherwise, it's your opponents turn to activate.

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 Post subject: Necron Change Document
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:46 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ Jan. 20 2010, 16:30 )

A forced move rule will not work.

Let's pretend that you have one portal and it is in the ZOC of a formation of scouts.  You activate the formation for an assault and fail.  You've burned your SC re-roll earlier in the turn and you are now faced with three options that the rules allow:

1. Shoot.  Nope that won't work.
2. Move.  If you move through the portal you end up in enemy ZoC and violate the rules.
3. Regroup.  Remove BMs and its over.

This is one example off the top of my head but I am sure there are others.  Forcing somebody to move will create problems.

We don't force planes to fly onto the board and face an onslaught of flak, do we?  If the player wants to stand down he can. What Jervis intended is to prevent people from burning activations off board, but we're still not providing a viable solution in this case.  Are you going to force a formation into the range of a Leman Russ formation on Overwatch?  What your proposing sounds like a forced maneuver like chess and that doesn't fit into Epic IMO.

If a player doesn't want to activate his formation off board, he can choose to activate other formations until it is his last choice.  At that point if he doesn't want to activate he just declares that he is done for the turn and it is over.  Of course that means that we need to explicitly state in an FAQ that certain activations are forbidden when offboard. But this isn't as easy as it sounds.  There are implications to each choice.

as I said before:  It's not the easiest thing to have happen in a Necron army, and if it has happened, then you are screwed anyway.  

By the way: a Tomb complex is the Blitz objective on your side of the table.  If they have that covered for most of the game, then you are doing something wrong.  :p

And, as I said, in such a limited case, you'd just burn your action.

Frankly, if you are coming out of a portal, into the firing arc of a Leman Russ group on overwatch, the fact that you are doing it as your Hold action, or as part of a normal movement action will have pretty much the same result:  You get shot at.

You can't compare Planes with ground units, because planes have a specific order which covers them in these situations:  Stand Down.

If you want to match that:  Great, you will have put us RIGHT back where we started from when every Necron formation that went off board removed all it's blast markers.. you just did it in a more complicated fashion.

Either that, or you are talking about adding yet another special rule, not just to the Necrons but to every portal using army as well.

Or, it can be a simple rule, that has some potentially harsh consequences when you fail.  Just like everyone else who fails a critical activation role.

Or you could Marshal out of the portal and automatically pass your activation.

Either way, if all of you were playing it the wrong way, and avoiding this potentially harsh situation, it makes me wonder how many other downsides haven't been played properly and have skewed people's view of the army's relative power.

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