Presumably the extra cost of the falcons in the Ranger Warhost (75 points each!) is justified by the advantages being in a formation with an equal number of scouts provides, like being able to garrison.

I've only used them the once, but they didn't seem like a waste of points when I did.

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One of the problems that Falcons suffer from, is the same as LR's in Terminators, or the discussion in Thousand Suns.

There's a sliding scale of diminishing returns. Sure, an Aspect Squad with 8 Falcons is a formidable option, but even at 50pt Falcons, it's still 700pts. 700pts, that a single AT shot can remove the maneuverability advantage.

It's also going to screw with activations, and rallies, and firepower (Three 225pt activations can lay more BM's). There's a point where adding to a formation costs more than just the points spent.

Morgan Vening

While I agree with most of these (my mechanized Iyanden is chronically low on activeations), a single AT shot makes you decide how important that last stand is. I will leave a stand of Wraithguard behind if it is advantagous. Doing that with a quarter of your formation (if your Wave Serpent is hit) is more difficult to contemplate than an eighth.

Numerically, 2 Reaper Exarchs, 6 Avengers and 8 Falcons get:
Avg Save .33  CC 3.67 FF 12.67 AP 4    AT 10.67 Pts 870/750 w/ change

While the same with 4 Wave Serpents get:
Avg Save .407 CC 3    FF 10.67 AP 3.33 AT 0     Pts 550

Of course the average save on the WS goes to .556 if the troops are embarked. Those extra 2 FF hits are not worth the decreased save, even if I could get an extra 10 2/3 AT hits. An aspect formation is not a ranged killer, so holding off to pour AT fire is detrimental in most circumstances, and a waste of points.

This is an extreme case, but this just highltghts the problem that may be glossed over with just one or two Serpents replaced. Just my thoughts.

SG

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At the risk of playing 'Devil's advocate, I suspect the issue is taking a full set of Falcons with Guardians, which would major in several fields. 550 points gives you a 16 unit formation that can shoot the @@@@ out of many formations, is really good in assault (16x 4+ FF dice) and almost better in support. The Falcon 5+ armour is as good as most Aspects. The only real problem is getting BMs that will eventually take the sting out of the shooting capability, but at 16 strong, it is going to be quite hard to break outright. Farsight and Commander are further bonuses. As such it is arguably rather better than Aspects in Wave serpents.

However, at 700 points, the equivalent Aspect formation is probably less potent because the player is less likely to abandon aspect units that survive the loss of their transport, so such losses will tend to slow the formation down, and you can probably do a lot better with the 700 points

As others point out, put with Rangers they are also good. The main idea is cheap troops to get the Falcons, so IMHO ironically adding WraithGuard or Aspects is actually counter-productive because of the cost.

So the question is really, what should the cost of the Gardians + Falcon transport should be? At 65, the cost of the formation is 670 and you have to ask whether it is the equivalent of Revenants etc.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

That isn't a problem, since Falcons aren't normally an option for Guardians.

The only time Guardians can take Falcons as transports in in the Black Guardian formation in the Ulthwé list. I don't think it would be a problem to leave that formation as it is (+75 points to replace one Wave Serpent with two Falcons; maximum of four Falcons) while dropping the cost for Aspect Warriors.

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Good spot - my bad (or wishfull thinking on my part). In that case I would agree on the price drop to 50 ea.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

With falcons costing 50pts I could see myself using them with 4 stands of fire dragons, dire avengers or dark reapers. But still Falcon is the main AT tank with decent Support fire capabilities and it doesn't get too well with units wanting to engage a lot. (Serpent's have RA and can soak much more damage.)

65pts is too much, 50pts is much better, but I guess still falcons won't hit field as a transports too often.

Now this is going on right direction.

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Dark Eldar Dracon

Even at 50pts per Falcon, I also doubt they'll be used as transport very often. But there is a gap between never and not very often.

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A large one... *laugh*

At 50 points, I'd consider putting two Falcons as "escorts" in a mechanized Aspect Warhost, just to let it reach out and do damage in the early game.

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Totally agree Chroma. The main issue with Falcons has always been their brittle armour (and one reason why I have always felt that 'variable' armour was a reasonable suggestion - but that is another story). But here, I would field 3x Wave serpents in front of the two Falcons as a screen while getting the Falcons AT capabilities. I suspect it could be quite usefull as you add another FF 4+ and another unit to the formation size. But adding any more Falcons will make the formation both too expensive and too brittle, consequently the main problem will be any BMs acquired will rapidly reduce the Falcons shooting capability.

Dropping the 15 points makes this an attractive alternative IMHO - and I suspect you will see this a lot more often.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I'm not putting my aspects in those death traps even for 50 points  

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I've had fair to good success with a 4 Man FF Aspect Troupe with 2 Falcons and a Serpent. The Falcons do tend to die quickly, but add to the size and firepower of such a small unit. I would definitely look more closely at them in larger units at a reduced cost, but for the 8 stand Warhost, I can't see taking more than 4 - ever. 2 would be far more likely.

SG

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You can make a case for swapping 1 Serpent for 2 Falcons in the Biel Tan list at 50pts per falcon (Maybe upto 4 falcons) but I can't really see more being used or the falcon being any cheaper than 50pts considering its firepower. It is entirely too expensive at 65pts though.

Okay, there seems to be general agreement that this should go forward, so I'm going to implement it in the next NetEA Eldar document.

Unless some really good negatives come up soon!

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