Yeah, that looks familiar  

So have you found your games needing to end by turn 3 as you are struggling to find formations to complete objectives?

Also how have your regular opponents felt against such an army? Have they been happy to face it time and time again?

The main area that I struggle with is that the cult lists are made from the small inclusion found in the Black Legion list. It seems totally backwards to me that the Black Legion determines what the cult Legions have rather than the Black Legion borrowing from the (then non-existent) cult lists. It is as if EpicA decided to walk rather than learn to crawl in this respect. What it has done is leave you with a formation of 9 Fearless RA guys to attempt to price and make a list from.

I am going to read the list properly tonight. You appear to have captured a very good fluff force. I would love to see it be more competitive and have a range of options, however I see the limitations that you have of pricing some very good units.

It would be great to see 3 formations of Thousand Sons walking across a table with all assortment of Tzeentch signature items to make the rest of the force. That indeed would be a most expensive force however. Now I have to read up further on the Rubric of Ahriman, however I took it that the marines were almost automatons.

My initial thoughts were for these marines to not be able to March, have an Invulnerable Save and be Fearless. This would have dropped their points considerably. Probably even have 2-3 sorcerers in the formation of 9 units with a MW or TK attack each (orks have this) - these are just mad ravings I know..

Give me some time and let me see if I can find some ideas. No doubt you have done a lot of work on this. Take any ideas I give with a grain of salt I guess.

The major issue is that these cult lists seem to have to conform to the Black Legion which is a mistake IMO. It is a lazy design and one put together it appears to justify the use of 4 bases of cult Marines. If there was ever a chance to have the Black Legion conform and use what the cult lists provide, we would have a better project base to work from    

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Not necessarily by turn 3, but it does tend to get harder in Turn 4 if you don't rally.  It is often a matter of area control via Fearless/4+RA to hinder enemy movement and being that close to the enemy while broken means the chances to rally are substantially reduced.  There's a fair amount of withdrawal move maneuvering in the end phase sometimes.


That is the issue.  It tends to be just pound them, pound them and then pound them some more.  Assaults tend to be non-decisive because you're still beating on Fearless 4+RA troops.  It's like trying to take down a large titan with assaults.  The Thousand Sons just... won't... die.


I have waivered on this many times.  I can't decide if it's the per-unit price that's the problem or the fact that I was sticking with a 9-unit formation.  A 6-unit formation could probably go down to 300 points with the current stats.


This was tried long ago.  Way back in the very early Black Legion testing, I suggested that every other stand of TSons should have a Bolt of Change attack (1 sorcerer per 9 troopers = 1 per 2 stands, like the IG).  The result was that all those formations being very strong in assaults for their size and points and also having the ability to lay BMs was really, really powerful.

The other thing I tried in terms of adding sorcerers was to have them be a separate unit and not have the benefits of the Rubric, i.e. not Fearless.  However, that turned the sorcerers suicidal as they were the only unit that could take hackdown hits (besides Rhinos, of course) and they just blew away with the wind.


I think this is a good point.  I'm willing to consider a major overhaul for a 4.0 series, as there are a lot of playtests saying that most of the games seem to come out as above.

One thing I would like to leave is the Rubric marines.  I don't want them to diverge from the basic stats in the Black Legion list.  Those are actually pretty good and flavorful, even considering the last mechanical revisions to TSons in 40K.  However, a Rubric special rule that inhibits them in some way might work.

=======================

So, just spitballing...


The March issue would have little impact on their normal actions.  They are FF units and Marching denies them support fire.  I cannot think of a single time I ever Marched in a game.  However, only having a 15cm withdrawal move would make a big impact on their ability to use the "wall of Fearless" to fence off objectives and on the ability to use end-phase withdrawal moves to react to the enemy.  I think it would be worth a 25 point drop for the Retinue to start with, possibly more.

Maybe 6 units + Sorcerer for 300 points (would represent 3 sorcerers and 24 Rubric marines) as the core retinue, instead of 9 units.

Sorcerers are basically the only "new recruits" for the Thousand Sons as Rubrics are a fixed quantity and nearly immortal.  Another sorcerer-heavy formation (besides the Disc Riders, which are all sorcerers per the fluff) to represent less experienced sorcerers could be considered as well.  It could stay in the rare section with Termies and Disc Riders.  Maybe a daemon-summoning focus that starts kitted out with a Pact and a bunch of Thrall Wizards (the potential recruits).  Or possibly something along the lines of a small cabal of initiates that still has some mortal followers, more like an inquisitorial retinue than old-school TSons with a host of rubric marines at their beck and call.

Fearless vehicles are an issue as well.  Fearless Termies necessitate access to Fearless Land Raiders.  Otherwise, the transport just evaporates as soon as the formation breaks.  Fearless Land Raiders then necessitate Fearless Predators if they are in the same formation for the same reasons.  Maybe Retinues and Terminators could have "Rubric" added to all of their transports as a note in the army list rather than as part of the datafax.  Independent armor formations wouldn't have to pay such a steep premium for all-Fearless and they might be a viable alternative to Towers for fire support.

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Neal

I have been doing a bit of brainstorming, yet before I throw them up here without any order, I need to know the restrictions you would like to impose on the list. So can you please help me understand some of the following:

1. Are you thinking of diluting the list with non Rubric Thousand Sons marines?
- Fluff wise the only geneseed left would be from the sorcerers and the Primarch. Do they harvest and grow this or is it a limited resource? I just need to know whether you see Tzeench aligned marines in the list as opposed to the Rubrics or whether they are all Rubrics within the list.

2. Are you following the Black Legion example and they will be exactly the same?
- If so, this would severly limit (yet not eliminate) the examples and alternatives
- Out of all the cults, I believe Thousand Sons Rubric marines should retain Fearless. I am querying their ability to move around a table wherein the Black Legion list's example has no restrictions

3. Would you consider the restriction for all Rubric Marines to not be able to March move?  

4. Would you consider the restriction for all Rubric Marines to not be able to Double or March move?

5. Would you consider the initiative of a Rubric formation to be dependant on whether a Sorcerer is present or not? (1+ if present and 2+ if not)

Let me know about the above and then I can provide all my ideas and costings so far within the context of what you would consider

Cheers..  

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As far as I know, TSons don't create new marines using geneseed.  At least, I've never read anything that makes me think they geneseed new recruits.  All the "line" troops are rubric, obviously.  For sorcerers, either you have the raw psychic ability and drive to become a TSons sorcerer or you are an expendable thrall.  Geneseed is irrelevant.


Yes, exactly the same for the Rubric marines.  I agree that the background leaves little option.  However, that only restricts the core formation.

Right now there are only Rubric Terminators but previous iterations of the list had Chosen Termies with different stats.  Based on previous feedback we need to have only one kind to avoid confusion but the direction and style of TSons Terminators could change.

I could also see some sort of "novitiate" formations with sorcerers who have passed the thrall level or are fallen SM Librarians but aren't yet fully accepted as TSons Sorcerers.  Those might be taken in several directions and I talked about that a bit above.


I commented on some movement restrictions above in the "Rubric" notes.

I don't think not doubling is feasible in game play.  That would leave them with only a 15cm move and they couldn't use transports (only being able to load or unload once in a turn makes them so vulnerable as to be pointless).


Something similar was tried with the Iyanden Eldar list for the Spirit Seers and Wraithguard/Wraithlord formations.  It didn't work.  It's a pain to keep up with and too easy to forget.  The similar "radius command" concept has been a thorn in the side of the Nid development.

It's also not in the keeping of the spirit of Epic to abstract thigns to keep it simple.  The "death" of a model only means only means that it can't function as a unit.  Even though there might be enough damage to the sorcerer cabal unit, that doesn't mean all the sorcerers are dead or incapacitated.  Maybe 2 or 3 dispersed to direct the Rubrics.  Maybe several are "walking wounded" sorcerers that cannot fight personally but still have the capacity to direct the Rubrics.

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Oh well, that does not leave you with much. I mujst say that house ruling a list like this will make it alot more fun to play.

Anyway the changes I thought of yesterday (keeping in line with the above) were exactly what you would have thought then.

Unit of 6-9 Rubric Marines costed appropriately. Assuming that the 400 points is correct.

- 6-9 Thousand Sons Rubric Marines(TSRM) + Sorcerer: 6 TSRM 325 points. + 25 points per extra TSRM

That would save 75 points to a base unit that could be used elsewhere if not in the unit.

If there was a March restriction a further saving:

- 6-9 Thousand Sons Rubric Marines(TSRM) + Sorcerer: 6 TSRM 275 points. + 25 points per extra TSRM


As for the base marine vehicles retaining Fearless, I really do not understand this. If they are lost in an assault, then so what, this is a weakness for the opposition to exploit. Fearless removes too much from an opponent. I removed Fearless off vehicles for the cult lists and guess what, very little effect to the army. It would reduce vehicle points down by 25 points. When was the last time you took Land Raiders at 100 points and Predators at 75?

In line with removing Fearless (anfd not having 'Rubric' supply Fearless as then points for the basic unit should go up again), you could have a mech support of Land Raiders and Predators as an option

Transport upgrade with Land Raiders at 75 points and 2xRhino at 25 points (get rid of the silly 10 points)

That is it really. I have not thought about further units (sorcerers), but the above may be enough to either boost existent squads or maybe get another unit based on the restrictions you are placing.

I do not agree that the Silver Towers should be a Core choice. Instead I would swap them with the terminators and place a requirement of 1 TSRM to be taken for every Rubric Terminator Squad.

You also need to seperate the daemons from the Core units as they cannot be bought as formations

The only other cheap option you are going to have are the initiate units. Now you want sorcerers (not marines), so I will try and help with that.

Any use for cultists?

Overall, I think any development should be made with the opponent in mind. There is no use having a list if no-one wants to play against it. In this respect, we really need some leway away from the Black Legion restrictions.

Cheers neal.  

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I have tried 1-2 land raiders with a Retinue to be able to place BMs, but that's it.


Really?  When 75 point Land Raiders vaporize before 40 point infantry units, reducing the entire formation to 15cm move at the same time, I consider that a very large effect.  When vehicles weren't Fearless I never took them with troops and wouldn't even consider it.  I did it once and immediately stopped.  I only take Rhinos occasionally because I think a turn 1 redeployment is worth 50 points and I consider them disposable.


Buying 4 units worth of transport could be an issue - lots of excess capacity in a formation for cheap.


I have no objections to this concept but I want to avoid multi-tiered force selection.


It's just an editorial bit.  That's the way the current lists do it.


Possibly.  What did you have in mind?


Not that I disagree with the first point, but I don't see how you get from there to the need for Rubric Marine stats to be different from the BL stats.

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I will try and keep in line with the responses as they fell down the page.



You need to ignore the 40 points issue. The Fearless Transport option appears to be a personal preference so I guess I am not going to be able to sway you on this point no matter what I say. As an opponent to the list, I would not play against it while vehicles remained Fearless. Marines lose vehicles as do the Black Legion. Why should a cult list be any different? Oh well.



I do not understand this. a unit of 4 could buy 2 Rhinos(25 points) or 2 Landraiders (150 points). Did I miss something here?



Nothing at this time     I will get onto it. The list needs a cheaper formation even as a Blitz or Garrison guard to boost the activations.



It was just a general opinion that should have been left out - apologies. The stats themselves are not something I think should change. I also believe that they should remain Fearless (the only Cult legion that should IMO). The fact is however, any small change that is made, no March move for instance, automatically places the unit in question in the minds of most people who do not look beyond the Black legion list for direction.

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I think you're not grasping the reasons I think the Land Raider should be Fearless.

Not having Fearless transport is not the issue.  The Rhinos are not Fearless.  I don't have a problem with them being hacked down and it doesn't bother me based on the character of the list that the force sometimes bogs down.

I'm also not opposed to TSons losing vehicles to hackdowns as a general concept.  Losing a more expensive unit is obviously a weakness but if it were just an inherent weakness, I wouldn't have a problem.

The important factor is that it's a weakness the player can avoid.  Don't take the expensive, non-Fearless armor.  It's a no-brainer.

To put it a different way, you have a unit priced at X, and then you have the same unit priced at X, but in a formation that makes it more vulnerable to hackdown hits - added weakness, without price offset.

So... how do you fix such a discrepancy?  I can think of 3 ways:
2 different prices
2 sets of abilities
A set of abilities where the discrepancy disappears

I went for a single set of abilities and a single price so as to allow, in theory, the maximum choice in formation composition.  I don't have a problem with the other options (or something else) as long as it can be implemented in a straightforward fashion.


I wasn't clear.  If you buy 4 transport slots at a pop, you could have up to 3 spare slots.  Say we had a 375 point retinue with 9 units.  2 "Rhino blocks" can transport only 8 units.  You'd have to buy 3.  That would give you 9 units and 6 rhinos, which is enough for 12 units, or 3 spare slots.


What price range do you think is right?  We were talking about multiple options in the 300 point range and the possibility of a new option of sorcerer recruits that could come in under that.


Ah.  I'm okay with revised rules as long as they are likely to create minimal confusion.

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Oh. Well maybe the Sorcerer comes with his own Rhino for the points? Just an idea




Leave this one for now. I will come back to it when I get my head around it  



Marines (depending on development) I would see anywhere from 275 points to 325 points at a start before adding on the extra Marines

For Sorcerers, I am not sure. I would really like to see a 200 point unit in there or something in the 200-275 range. It would really help the army overall with gameplay. I was going to brainstorm ideas this coming week.



Then we have a common goal  

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I think that the rule is being made to protect a unit that is rarely if ever taken anyway. There are some problems I see in the logic:

1. Making them Fearless increases their points and guarantees that they will not be taken
2. If you are in an assault, most times you are where you need to be. In the majority of cases, the vehicles are not as needed than at the start. I am sure Teleport and Ahriman's chosen are better choices to spend points on.
3. Losing vehicles is a part of the game. In the last year I must have played 50+ games and I have come to the conclusion that losing vehicles is something you deal with. Everyone deals with it.
4. At least with cheaper vehicles, they will be taken for their role and not as expensive and further Fearless RA units to further frustrate the opponent.

Making the Vehicles Fearless appears to be a case where you want to protect the unit or points. If everyone did things like this, interest in Epic would die. Presenting the all Fearless list to my mates, they may play me once, yet I would quickly realise they are not having fun and in effect, neither was I as I would feel guilty after every attack not taking extra hits in any way, and really ripping out a major part of the rules that is integral to claiming objectives or earning something like a BTS.

Fearless is a greedy skill and should be used within reason IMO. Giving it to Land Raiders and the like purely for the fact that a bad experience was attained due to an assault without the skill is not ideal.

No opponent that I know of is going to agree to play against the list as it remains. We tried fearless units and transports ourselves with the old Khorne list, and after a few weeks of playtests, we actually had a reduction of interest. Since the change and looking at the list from the opponent's perspective, I now have a group of people that do not mind the list and agree to play against it week in  and week out. I would love to see the same for the Thousand Sons list. That's all I am saying.

Cheers dude.

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Frogbear:  You are missing the point.

1)  It's not about Fearless transports.
2)  It's not about "losing vehicles" or wanting not to lose vehicles.

I don't know why you think those are relevant.  Neither is included in or related to the explanations I gave.  As far as I'm concerned, those are not even considerations, let alone goals.

============

So, to try again...

Non-Fearless units attached to Fearless units gain a substantial additional vulnerability.  It is similar in that respect to adding a small number of LVs or AVs to an infantry formation.

People do not willingly create "mixed" formations (whether Inf/AV or Fearless/Non-) unless one of two things is present - 1) the synergy of adding the mixed units is equivalent to the added formation vulnerability, or 2) the mixed units are cheap enough that it takes the vulnerability into account.

Adding Land Raiders to TSons infantry adds both the vulnerability of mixed inf/AV formations AND the vulnerability of mixed Fearless/non-Fearless.  It adds a lot of problems, so it needs some bit offsets in other areas.

It has no synergy. Instead of being in a formation of units with a distinct role - fire support - the LR is in a formation that is a mix of firepower and assault so both are watered down.  There are few shooting units, so they are extremely easy to suppress.  The ability to lay BMs is a good benefit, but at best it's break-even.

Non-Fearless Land Raiders are fine, but they have to have a different price because they suck when attached as compared to when they are in a dedicated armor formation.

At 75 points, the presumed non-Fearless armor formation price, I'd tell anyone taking them with a Retinue that it was a bad idea.  At 60 points I would consider taking Land Raiders with a Retinue, maybe 65.


And no, this is not based on one game where a TSons Retinue lost some LRs.  If that's what you think I wish I'd never used that example .  The effect has been observed in many armies.  All the Cult SM lists have struggled with it.  Stompas are a well-documented liability for the Supastompa they are attached to.  IG penal legions, the Deathwing-as-Fearless versions of the Dark Angels, etc..

===

And in an interesting bit of synchronicity, Chroma has re-opened the debate about Falcon pricing in the Eldar lists, which revolves around the same issues of vulnerability and lack of synergy (though not involving Fearless).

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I'll add that I don't understand where you're coming from. There's something I'm not reading, that's failing to set off the lightbulb that says "Woot! I get it!"

Regarding the 'mixed' formation thing, I'm firmly of the belief that there shouldn't be an instance where it's possible. Fearless is IMO the naffiest rule in the game when it comes to formation wide abilities. Wraithguard attached to Guardians are fine. Formations of Wraithguard, aren't.

The offsets of the Land Raiders, is that, like the non-fearless Rhinos, it adds the maneuverability as Rhinos, but also, not insignificant firefight, and resilience, that Rhino's don't. Rhinos are a lot easier to snipe out, making the formation more susceptible to hoofing it. Raiders are ~4 times more resilient. That, IMO is their role.

The suppression issues are important, yes. But these apply regardless of the status of Fearless. The increase in proportional cost here, actually makes them a worse choice. A lot of it also depends on whether you follow through on the shortening of the main squad. This, I think is the crux of the Falcon revision. Having to buy 5 (for the 9 unit formation) is a lot more significant investment than 3 (for a 6 unit formation).

I think they are probably a little bit overpriced (even at the Armour price), but instead of a point reduction, how about a little stat modification, putting the firefight of the LR to 4+ (same weapon loadout as Marines and BL). Same could be said for the Predator (and a drop back to 50 for that). The Warp Flame thing is a rounding issue, IMO.

Speaking of which, the Warp Flame thing might warrant some reconsidering. I don't have an issue with it on the the LR/Pred, but even without the BL Armour change, having an additional 4+ first strike on the Dread (and maybe Deciever, haven't looked closely), seems a little much.

Morgan Vening

Neal

That explination makes sense to me now. The cost between a 75 point Land Raider and a 60 point one is a wash IMO. It may be a niggling concern for yourself, however I would leave it at 75 points. The formation gets extra units, extra shooting and with range, and even though they are now taking AT shots, it is a pretty good save. Those things can also take the MW and TK shots that may hit the formation.

I will look at Chromas post a little later today.

Anyway, let me get back to the fun stuff. I will write the idea in the next post now.....

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Thrall Champion
[text here]
AR/CC/FF/Weapon/Range/Firepower
6+/-/5+/Bolt of Change/(small Arms 15cm)/Macro Weapon
Special: Leader

Thrall Sorcerer
[text here]
AR/CC/FF/Weapon/Range/Firepower
-/-/5+/(spell name here)/(small arms 15cm)/Ignore Cover

Tzaangor
Beastmen make good servants for the sorcerers of the Thousand Sons. They are especially powerful warriors and so are often recruited as guards and fighters. Over the many thousands of years that the Thousand Sons have lived on the Planet of the Sorcerers a substantial population of Tzaangors has grown up, forming a subordinate warrior caste. Although some Tzaangor have joined the nomadic warbands of the planet's surface, they are relatively few. The sorcerers treat their guardians well and reward those that stay in their service

AR/CC/FF/Weapon/Range/Firepower
6+/5+/6+/close assault weaponry/(small arms 15cm)/-

----------------------------------------------------------
Core or Support Unit

Thrall Sorcerers
- One Thrall Champion Upgrade, 4 Thrall Sorcerers and 5 Tzaangors : 200 points


I was not sure whether you saw the Sorcerers in armour or not, and I know the unit is quite mixed, however I think it is a welcome addition to the list (being a cheap unit) and is quite 'fluffy' in regards to Thrall Wizards and their bodyguards.

Their role is to garrison and hold objectives, while the Thousand Sons do the job they are meant to.

Let me know what you think

Cheers....

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Fair enough.  Maybe most people wouldn't care.


Okay, I see where you're going.  I had something similar in mind, only with daemons instead of Tzaangors.  I think this is a little too expensive.

I'd give the sorcerers 6+CC.  After all, these are supposed to be tough guys on the way to being TSons sorcerers.  Possibly some token armor save, whether from actual armor or psychic defenses.

On a minor note, I think "thrall" in the TSons fluff denotes expendables so a different name would be better.

Subbing in possible daemons for the beastmen I was thinking along the lines of...

Novitiate Sorcerer
AR/CC/FF/Weapon/Range/Firepower
6+/6+/5+/(spell)/(small arms 15cm)

Novitiate Cabal - Initiative 2+, 150 points
1 TSons Lord (the trainer - possibly Icon Bearer or custom character)
9 Novitiate Sorcerers
Upgrades - Pact, Icon, Thrall Wizards

That's figured at ~15 points per Novitiate and ~25 for the character but the stats/points could be jiggled.  It's a cheap FF formation.  Good for the same roles you mentioned but more flexible due to more FF and options for daemon summoning.   It could even be tricked out as a Greater Daemon conduit for ~375, including the GD.

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