As a great fan of mystery/imagination, GW:s latest moves to explicate the Realms of Chaos or confirming a single Hive entity only seem to lessen the 40K universe. Intriguing pieces of literature are seldom encyclopedic in nature.

/Fredmans

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The thread is also very interesting on how Tyranids travel from system to system.
Also:

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LOL! So true.

I'm always intrigued why things must be delved into in such minutiae. We write the rules and interpret them as we see fit. Having no actual RL contact with the alien race known/written as the Tyranids, how do we really know what the hive mind does? It's all massive speculation and we should come to terms with the rules already written by us humans.

I have to ask BL, are you unhappy with the Tyranid rules?

Strongly agree, the mystery and possibility for the 40k background is what drew me into what was basically a rubbish wargame ruleset (40k).

That GW has spat on the Tyranid background by giving them Special Characters and free-thinking leaders is no surprise to me. Special Characters are all the rage in wargaming apparently.

The background 'jumped the shark' a good few years ago, when it started being 'word of god' rather than 2nd hand accounts and notes, when the 'one-up man ship' in each new Codex reached Avatar strangling proportions, when the Chaos gods started holding hands.
I recommend any 40k'er to read one of the 2nd Edition Codex's to see what has truly been lost.



No-one's forcing you to read it. Tyranids don't just exist in our minds, they exist in the printed books of Games Workshop. If they where a product purely of our collective suggestions, then yes, we couldn't argue any absolutes- but GW provides a basis for discussion, as what they say is pretty much fact on the matter- from which we can extrapolate and compare theories.

I find these discussions fascinating as if I find something interesting I like to delve into the minutae. I'd find it a poor mind that doesn't delve deeper into the subjects it finds interesting (not necessary 40k Tyranids, but any subject you find interesting).

To put it bluntly, the 'It's just a game, geeks' is the most pointless post uttered as we all know it, but thanks for Mr Cool's reminder and post count boost...

I agree. That's why what I've written is no such thing. You may interpret it that way but you have it wrong.

My point is aimed squarely at trying to change rules to be entirely accurate when it's not possible from a fluff perspective given the quantity of GWs rather iffy product(you yourself said "jumped the shark"). Sure you can have close proximities but not definites.

Sorry if I made you feel like a nerd, Jeridian. Wasn't my aim at all.  

Well i'm happy that GW now supports my understanding of the Tyranids. As you canread above i believe that higher Synapse creatures have some measure of independence and aren't utter slaves to their instincts.

And yes i have some issues with the Synapse rules that creatureas outside of Synapse range arew removed instead of following their instincts (eg Hunt = Assault or Lurk = Shoot both with some penalty).

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I best cement my nerd credentials more with a Star Trek reference.

I liken the Tyranids to the Borg. In early, Next Generation visions of the Borg, they where a gestalt consciousness, a billion automatons linked as one mind.
They where scary because they where relentless, impossible to negogiate with, innumerable and purely out to turn you into a mindless automaton.
The voice made up of multiple voices that spoke for the Borg encompassed the alien nature of having no leader but one voice.

Then Voyager and Star Trek films came along and the Borg suddenly had a laughably human queen with her own dastardly deeds and desire for android sex. The Borg became as frightening as a sneeze.

The Tyranids follow the same pattern- started as gestalt consciousness of billions of automatons with Cthulu like ignorance of other species (merely as prey), but seems to be going down the route of dastardly Hive Tyrants twirling moustaches.

Why? Is the Cthulu indifference and alien mindset too complicated for GW target audience? Must Tyranid 'leaders' (and likely Necron Lords when they get released) be psuedo-humans with motives as cardboard as Chaos Space Marine leaders now?



True, Black Legion and I have used the same GW writings and have come to radically different conclusions on the Tyranids- but being able to see, discuss and argue various interpretations allows us to strengthen or alter our own ideas.

For me, I really don't like 'human' Hive Tyrants as it dumbs down the truly alien way Tyranids operate (essentially without sentient thought), the Cthulu style that they don't care, they don't think- they just move on instinct like a locust swarm is what made them truly unique and scary for me, whereas dastardly moustache twirlers just get an eye roll.

So true, although even locust swarms is too definite for me. What I liked about the original 40K background was that a huge portion of the galaxy was unexplored or explored and forgotten, and that the limited knowledge was from the human perspective. Eldar were truly enigmatic, Chaos was flux, never defined. Something alien should never be given human motives. This is not only dumbing down, it is stupidity.

If Jeridian throws out Star Trek comparison, I would like to nerdify my post with Tolkien and Lovecraft references. What makes LotR so living is the constant presence of mystery, both present and past. We see a part of Middle-Earth, and only a part of that part. What we do not get to see is somehow just as living as the parts described, even if only referred to. Likewise, Middle-Earth has a living, although mostly forgotten, past. It is the fortune of LotR that we do not get to know everything about elves, dwarves, orcs, Tom Bombadillo and all the other fantastic elements of that story. We get to see enough to enthrall us, but never so much that we know them (and consequently get bored with them). The facts we learn are all referred to in myth or legend. The Enlightenment never hit Middle-Earth.

The same goes for Lovecraft (a reference we share). Alien entities remain alien, and are not even referred to as entities but rather as horrors who do not even obey the physical laws of the Universe that is known to Man. In the words of Michel Houellebecq "they remain fundamentally unutterable". (If you have not, read his essay on H.P. Lovecraft: Against the world, against life).

I do not say that GW does it all the time, but their wish to explain more is often counter-productive.

/Fredmans

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Agreed, Hitchcock knew that the less you tell the more frightening. The audience's/readers imagination will always conjure up more fear than the writers description.

I agree also that legends need to stay legends. My extrapolation of the Tyranids as a locust entity are from the Imperial accounts of the Tyranids, as such they can only be a version of the Imperial knowledge of them- 3rd hand at best.
Much like the Imperial scholar suggesting Ork technology works by Ork mind control, it is one suggestion by one scholar with very little to back it up- yet it is taken as fact by the Ork community.

I liked when most of the background came from an Imperial point of view:
-Plausible deniability- the narrator/word of god must be right, the Imperial scholar can be wrong
-Mystery
-The Imperial is the human point of view, it's easier to describe an alien from a human POV than alien POV...as we're human

Well that some Tyranids are sentient and capable of independend thoughts is originally from 2nd edition. IIRC in the describtion of the Hive Tyrant.

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I remember reading a fan-fiction where a Hive Tyrant with a British accent invited a Commissar over for tea in some James Bond style "this is my master plan".
I **** you not, I have read it- shudder.

We have to disagree on what we think (or want) Tyranids to be, and if the quotes you give are right then GW is indeed endorsing your version- though considering the background GW has released recently, I'd hesistate to call that a compliment.
Do the Tyranids choke any Avatars?

I agree on the thought that Tyranids are not sentient in a way humans can understand. An unknowable gestalt mind outside of possible human experience generates a far more grand and alien menace than seeing them as mere beasts that are controlled by intelligent alpha creatures.

The 4th edition codex has a remarkable little piece of fluff text that states that all the classifications and names imposed upon the Tyranid threat are mostly there to soothe mankind's fear of this completely alien horror. It is an explanation imposed from an outside perspective, and it is meant not to really understand the phenomenon of the Tyranids, but rather to serve as a coping mechanism for the prey.

The fact is that GW has produced contradicting fluff material on a great many things. The fact that some Tyranids are described having human like sentience in 2nd edition can be counterpointed by other so called facts in other source books. To make another Lovecraft reference, as scholars of the fortieth millennium, we can only sift through the contradictory and confusing facts of out tomes of arcane knowledge, in search of a truth that may or may not be knowable by our fragile minds. To put it shortly, it is a matter of interpretation.

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Except that it allows them to sell more models with different gadgets on them -- the problem with the hive-mind is that its 'miniature representation' is fairly generic.  It may have dramatic appeal, but it doesn't allow for more sales of different varieties of plastic.