Count me also among those that don't think this is a good idea. I haven't read everything ever written on Chaos, but from a fluff perspective, I do know that in Double Eagle (awesome book) the best that Chaos was able to field were held to a standstill and eventually bested by the best that the IG (the Phantine XX were an Imperial Guard regiment, they just happened to fly). So I would consider them roughly equivalent to really good IG. That's just from a fluff perspective.

Was there a game balance issue that drove this recommendation?

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

I need to reread that... I thought the Imperial forces couldn't compete (hardware-wise) with Chaos, and it came down to (in true Abnett fashion) plucky elite pilots?

[SPOILER ALERT]

Seeing as how the story was a 40K version of Germany invading France in 1939 and the following Battle of Britain, you can kind of see where he was headed with the story, though I didn't connect the two dots at the time of first reading.

My takeaways from the book were:

1. Chaos Hellblades are extremely maneuverable and cause the Thunderbolts all sorts of headaches when they attempt to engage in a dogfight.

2. Chaos had a numerical advantage over the Imperium throughout the early and mid stages of the battle , which only exacerbated their problems.

3. Much like Galland and et al during the Battle of Britain, Chaos had some super hot fighter aces. This was handled differently in that the Chaos fighter pilots had nearly become a part of their machine, so their reflexes were much quicker in general, than normal humans.

4. Chaos aircraft are not able to take as much damage as their Imperial counterparts. Also, much like American fighter aircraft in the Pacific, if they chose not to engage Chaos on their terms, relying on high speed diving attacks, they could minimize the issues associated with their larger, more heavily armed Thunderbolt. The Imperial Thunderbolt is in many ways, a lot like the American P-47.

5. The IG pilots either got really good fast or got dead. The Apostles were just all kinds of  awesome. Literally, they were flying Chuck Norrises (sp?).

6. A number of times, those "plucky" IG caught the Chaos forces unawares, both tactically and strategically. So this is where I struggle with Chaos flyers being that much better than Imperial flyers.

7. Although it takes everything you have, you can defeat Chaos, and they do. Again, in a very similar manner to the British in the BoB.

So short of some game imbalance that needs to be addressed, I'd say that giving the Chaos flyers 1+ Initiative isn't justified from a fluff perspective.

And do pull it out and read it again. I think it's one of Abnett's best, but then I'm an air-head. I actually used to study air campaigns in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam because I found all that stuff so interesting.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

I aggree  

And from a fluff/rule perspective from other systems:
In BFG Chaos Spaceships are usually crewed by Human Renegates but can be upgraded to Chaos Space Marine Crew which improves their ability to execute orders.

In the Imperial Armour books it says that Chaos Aircraft are piloted by corrupted Servitors or are possessed by Daemons.

In Aeronatutica Imperialis the Hell Blade is the most manouvreable aircraft in the game (shared with the Eldar Nightwing which is faster and the Imperial Lightning which is slower) but also the only one which has only one damage point (all other including the Hell Talon have at least two damage points).

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Point made over Navy+spacecraft. Will be taken into account for next version.

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

As usual, Honda makes a number of well argued points and comparisons. For those who are interested, I reommend reading up on the Flying Tigers under Chenault, Saburo Sakai te top Japanese ace, or indeed on the strategies and tactics used by any of the top aces of WWI and WWII. Pilots that employed firing passes tended to survive longer and so shot down more enemy than those who stopped to dog-fight. When 'bounced', the pilots who survived ere those who could out-turn the attackers, or who employed tricks to confuse the enemy. Typcally however it all boiled down to who saw their opponents first.

However the air-rules a they stand really do not allow any kind of simulation of these kind of tactics, other than to determine which side initiates an air combat and whether the defenders are able to do anything about it.

I might add that IMHO the issue is as much about the srategy rating as anything else. Here it translates into being able to depoy CHAOS aircraft on CAP, or a space-borne assault. It almost suggests a case for people declaring the first activation as part of the strategy roll (I will post this suggestin sepaately).

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"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

The air rules really do need starting again from scratch. They're a total mess and don't really achieve much tactical flexibility either

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Totally agree.

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On the Daemon Engines, I'm in favour of the proposed change, as it would at least end up with their being consistent, and, as I discovered, during my first game a couple of weeks ago, the Lord of Battles and Daemon Engines of Khorne are actually not that tough, even with reinforced armour, particularly the latter, since they are pretty easy to suppress, so a small boost isn't going to hurt in my view.

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Try two at 75 and see if it's broken.

I'm actually surprised they weren't at least that price already. Given the fact that LatD have a base 2+ Initiative* (not counting potential BM penalty), and a SR of 2, the ability to summon and fail to activate, is something that should be affected by the cost.

* 3+ Initiative isn't out of the question with regards the new Faction Rule, and to have two GD's requires them to work separately (as they must be different factions) or have one wasted as a casualty soak (if you use the same type, they can't be on the field at the same time).

Morgan Vening

Just writing up an army list and the Chaos Spawn should have +D3 assault attacks too, they’re missing from the datasheet.

With others spotting the odd typo on the stats I thought I'd have a look too    .

The Daemon Prince has been given 2 extra FF attacks it only has 1 in original list.
The Subjucators CC and FF stats are the wrong way round (should be CC 3+ and FF5+ ).

Keep up the good work