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World Eaters List - Be Scared!

 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:37 pm 
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@Juggers: They have similar stats (Wounds, Toughness, Save) as an Attack Bike which is already a LV in Epic.

@Frenzy: So basically normal assault but can take saves against extra losses due to combat resolution? And if they where already broken at the beginning fo teh assault ALL survivors have to make saves again?

Not sure about allowing a withdrawal move.
They are in a frenzy, then wont run. Some might come to their senses, withdraw (from the actual combat but not a full withdrawal move)and prepare for another assault but the others who still are in the grips of their battle frenzy are hacked down.

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:49 pm 
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Quote: (Spectrar Ghost @ Jan. 07 2010, 13:35 )

Quote: (frogbear @ Jan. 07 2010, 05:55 )

Broken units with 'Frenzy' who lose an assault are not wiped out. Instead they treat the result as a normal combat with extra hits being counted as hackdown hits for purposes of saves under this rule. In effect, units with 'Frenzy' always recieve their armour saves from the result of a lost combat.

Furthermore, if the formation was broken before the assault, each surviving unit with 'Frenzy' must take a further armour save (including any RA and INV) for losing the combat.

These two appear to be saying the same thing. Do broken units resolve the combat normally, including hackdowns, then everyone takes an additional save for being broken? It is not clear. This second interpretation would seem indifferentaible from everyone taking a save to begin with. Also, with no armor save (normally), 'hackdown hits' are more properly classified as 'hackdown losses.'

Therefore the rule can be rewritten as (changes in caps):

All units that have the 'Frenzy' ability may make their normal armour saves (including any re-rolls that may apply) against hackdown LOSSES due to losing close combat, LOSSES DUE TO LOSING CLOSE COMBAT WHILE BROKEN, or LOSSES caused by suffering Blast Markers when broken. (Note that units are still destroyed outright if they are within 15cm of enemy at the end of a Withdrawal move)

SG

Not sure what the issue with the wording is. The rules use the term "hits" twice, and "losses" not at all. Though I'll admit I prefer terminology of "hackdown losses" or "hackdown casualties" better.

There is a significant difference between taking "everyone saves for losing while broken" and "hackdown casualties" being in a specific order.

So, here's my attempt at a wording. Mostly stolen from Fearless.

Quote: 

Units that are Frenzied are resistant to damage from the additional hits of losing an assault and from the damage inflicted by Blast markers if broken. Frenzied units get all their normal saves against casualties inflicted in this way.
Furthermore, frenzied units that are broken at the start of an assault ignore the rules for being wiped out if broken, but after additional casualties and before making the withdrawal move, all Frenzied units in the formation must make a normal save.
After Withdrawal, any Frenzied units still within 15cm of the enemy are destroyed.


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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:04 pm 
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Just great to see you have started painting your minis!

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:03 pm 
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Quote: (Ares @ Jan. 08 2010, 05:04 )

Just great to see you have started painting your minis!

I will get pics up soon with these. It's just that the camera takes a shot that makes the mini look shoddy compared to seeing it in person with the naked eye that makes it look quite acceptable.

Maybe I need to get a crappier camera    :grin:



As for the 'Frenzied' rule, I will do some rework this weekend.

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:06 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Jan. 08 2010, 01:37 )

Not sure about allowing a withdrawal move.
They are in a frenzy, then wont run. Some might come to their senses, withdraw (from the actual combat but not a full withdrawal move)and prepare for another assault but the others who still are in the grips of their battle frenzy are hacked down.

I understand what you mean. It is a naming problem yet we do not really want to change too many of the basic ruules for the ability.

We are using as a 'tag' rather than the actual representation of the wording as EpicA abstracts alot of what goes on in terms of the battlefield. WQe could use the word 'Determined' but Frenzy appears to sit better with a Khornate legion.

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:24 pm 
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It's not the name. It's the ability it represents and the "real" happenings on the battlefield which is the basis for this rule in Epic.

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:36 pm 
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My post had more to do with the "double jeopardy" of taking combat casualties, the saving against everyone. At first glance, it seemed to me to have fewer average casualties than one alone, but apparently I need more sleep. :whistle: I'll go back to lurking on this thread now...

SG

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:49 pm 
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Quote: (Spectrar Ghost @ Jan. 08 2010, 06:36 )

My post had more to do with the "double jeopardy" of taking combat casualties, the saving against everyone. At first glance, it seemed to me to have fewer average casualties than one alone, but apparently I need more sleep. :whistle: I'll go back to lurking on this thread now...

SG

Yeah, I was still tryiong to msake sense of your post - hence no reply. I wanted to make sure I was reading it correctly.

Thanks for answering back   :D

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:52 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Jan. 08 2010, 06:24 )

It's not the name. It's the ability it represents and the "real" happenings on the battlefield which is the basis for this rule in Epic.

I will look more at the whole withdrawal move as well.   :handshake:

I just do not want it to be another Fearless where no matter what you do, they do not move.

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:54 pm 
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Quote: (Spectrar Ghost @ Jan. 07 2010, 21:36 )

My post had more to do with the "double jeopardy" of taking combat casualties, the saving against everyone. At first glance, it seemed to me to have fewer average casualties than one alone, but apparently I need more sleep. :whistle: I'll go back to lurking on this thread now...

SG

No need to hide. Participation is good.

The reason for the "double jeopardy" is actually to solve an issue that became apparent with the previous rule incarnation.

Take a formation of 8 Frenzied units with a 4+ save. Combat goes poorly, and 6 units are killed. All other considerations are even, and so the combat is lost by 6.

With the previous rules, a formation unbroken at the start of the combat is all but guaranteed wiped out. Each unit has to make three saves (12.5% each, ~23% chance of not being wiped). But a formation broken at the start of the combat is likely to survive (75%), with a decent (25%) chance of emerging unscathed.

Any situation that makes it preferable to be broken BEFORE an Assault, needs to be reconsidered.

I probably wouldn't mind a lessening of this, so that each unit in the formation must 'save or die' OR take hackdown saves, whichever is the greater, but wording it in a non-confusing manner is beyond me.

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:26 am 
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The idea that BL has is stuck in my head.

Would adopting the rule from Fearless...

- Frenzied units would not have to withdraw, or if they did, they need only move 5cm away from the enemy,

or adopting a rule that the

- Frenzied units need only widrawal to be outside 5cm of enemy models or be destroyed..

...be unbalanced at all?

I am at two thoughts on this as the saves they are taking are a large step down from Fearless (with the lessening of the points taken into consideration), and it is not like they are immune to the effects of BM and the like. Terminators would be the one concern, yet at 100 points a unit plus Teleport, they should be a tough formation.

If anything, it would represent Frenzied a little more...

So, would any of the options above really be unbalancing?

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:27 am 
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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:26 am 
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Quote: 

Thing is that they do have a rider on top which could be considered an open topped vehicle. Open topped vehicles are LV. As the thing can be effected by both AP and AT, we thought it reasonable that LV was appropriate. It also helps to keep the price down on these units.


So, I'm not intentionally trying to be a pain the neck, but using that logic, then wouldn't "bikes" then be LV? See the issue? I have a hard time envisioning that bikes are a tougher target type than the juggers. Just doesn't seem consistent to me. It's that "tidy" thing coming out again.

Quote: 

They are effective with a 3+ save and INV. If they draw the attention of the opponent, then for 250-300 points, I would say they are doing their job. Afterall, if the opponent leaves them, they will hit hard. So drop the termies and have these guys within charge range (40cm) and watch him squirm in making a decision. LV is not a death sentence.


And that may be, I guess some more testing will determine. It's just one of those aesthetic things that's a bit annoying to me.

Also, good catch with the Slaughterers matched up with the Slaughterfiends. For some reason I had gotten into my head that they had the same movement rate.

More canoodling will transpire...

Cheers,

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:25 am 
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I know what you mean about the idea of the juggers vs bikes. Yet the same then could be said about land speeders and their LV.

In effect, I will attempt to justify it in these terms:

- Juggers are bigger than bikes (they are an easier target to hit)

- Bikes are faster and more maneurvourable - there is no 2nd guessing a jugger. it comes right at you (again, easier to hit)

Apart from these, pricing them to be INF or AV is going to push them over the 300 point mark where they will never be considered as an option. That is my concern. They are a dime-a-dozen to buy and I would hate to see them unused. At present, they are a viable choice.

I will be playtesting them more. Now that they are 250 points to start, I may play a game or two of the Mighty Frogbear Thunder Assault (MFTA)   :grin:

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:28 am 
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So the Black Legion changes have been announced so I thought I would make the quick comparisons. Note that a lot of what is being proposed has already been in place and tested in this list for the past year.

1. I have an issue with the Daemon Assault Engines in the BL list. I will review them against the ones in this list, however I cannot help think that the BL list has these costed incorrectly.

2. The Chaos Dread and 3+ save - The World Eaters are going to stick with the 4+ save as we see them as an older and perhaps degraded model (maybe even part flesh?) yet they have a very specific purpose, and that is for the drop. Hence they are costed differently dependant on their role. If they are used for the right purpose (drop pods), then their cost is made back through the buying of the Drop Pods. So no change in this regard.

3. Navy Initiative - World Eater Navy Initiative will remain at 2+. The only exception to this will be the replacement for the Despoiler Battleship which will be slow and Steady and attain a 1+ initiative (this was already in the works before the release of the Black Legion changes).

3. Price of Hellblades and Helltalons will follow the example as shown in the Black Legion Changes

4. Due to the Hellblade price increase, and a decrease in the Hell Talon Bombers, we are considering an upgrade of 25 points to the Banelord with a little something *special* to stand out from the Black Legion version. ~~~ edited 10.45pm

5. Harbinger is to remain at 400 points - this needs further testing from others however I cannot see it going up in cost.

So as you can see, the Chaos List changes have brought very little for changes in this list. If anything, this list has helped to promote the changes that have just been released.

All that is left to do it to work on points 3 & 4 above as well as the other changes that were planned for the list.   :grinning:




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