The new lists are now up-





http://www.players.tacticalwargames.net ... fileId=112

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

For ease of reference these are the Chaos changes in the new lists above


BLACK LEGION CHANGES
SPECIAL RULES
Current hated factions rule changed to all factions hate each other (and therefore do not get the +1 bonus to initiative roll if within 30cm of another faction). Unvdivided do not hate/or are hated by any other factions.
UNIT STATS
- Feral Titan – MW removed from Hellmouth
- Obliterator – AA changed to 6+, invulnerable save removed
- Helltalons-
Fighter Bomber 5+ - -
Twin Lascannon 30cm AT4+/AA4+ Fixed Forward
Havoc Launcher 45cm AP4+ Fixed Forward
Incendiary Bombs 15cm 1BP Ignore Cover, Fixed Forward
- Hellblades- name changed from Swiftdeaths
Fighter 6+
2x Reaper Autocannons 15cm AP4+/AT6+/AA5+ Fixed Forward
- Defiler – Changed to
AV 20cm 4+ 4+ 3+
Battlecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+
Reaper Autocannon 30cm AP4+/AT6+
Twin Heavy Flamer 15cm AP3+ Ignore Cover
Battle Claws Assault Weapon MW, Extra Attack(+1)
Fearless, Inlfiltrator, Invulnerable Save, Walker

- Plaguebearer-CC reduced to 4+, FF reduced to 6+
- Daemon Prince – TK removed from both FF+CC attacks (remain MW)
- Ravager Titan – Add D3 to Doomburner
- Chaos Rhinos – Replace Stormbolters with Twin Bolters
- Chosen – rename Chaos Terminators
- Forlorn Hope – rename Chosen Chaos Marines-stats as Chaos Marines+Scout
- Chaos Dreadnought – upgrade save to 3+
- Dreadclaws – Rules as SM drop pod except Deathwind+Scattering removed
NEW UNITS
- Harbinger-
Aircraft WE Bomber 5+ - -
Reaper Autocannon 30cm AP4+/AT6+/AA5+ Fixed forward
Reaper Autocannon 15cm AP4+/AT6+/AA5+ Right Arc
Reaper Autocannon 15cm AP4+/AT6+/AA5+ Left Arc
Incendiary Bombs 15cm 6BP Ignore Cover, Fixed Forward
Notes: Reinforced Armour
Damage Capacity 4 (Critical Hit – The Munitions of the Harbinger are hit setting off a series of catastrophic explosions. The Harbinger is destroyed)

- Stalker-
AV 30cm 5+ 6+ 6+
Shrike Missile System 30cm 4x AT6+/AA6+
Chaos Vindicator – stats as SM vindicator
- Chosen Chaos Marines
INF 15cm 4+ 4+ 4+
Bolters (15cm) Small Arms
Autocannon 45cm AP5+/AT6+
Notes: Scout









LIST
Aircraft and Spacecraft changed to 1+ initiative
Warlord rule removed. Replace with 25pt Supreme Commander upgrade to Retinues+Terminators –adds SC to Lord in that formation
Structure- Changed to-
CORE FORMATIONS – Retinues
ELITE FORMATIONS- 0-1 per Core-Chaos Terminators, Chosen, Decimator Co
SUPPORT FORMATIONS-0-2 per Core-Armoured Company, Bikes, Raptors, Defilers
Defiler Assault Pack added-4 Defilers for 275pts
Chosen – add Chaos Dreadnoughts as upgrade
Raptors- Price increased to 40pts per Raptor
Assault Company – Death Wheel moved to titan allocation. 0-2 restriction removed on Assault Co. Renamed Decimator Company.
Obliterator – price increased to 85pts
Feral – price reduced to 275pts
Chaos Vindicators – added as upgrade to Armoured Co+ Retinues at 0-3 35pts per unit
Greater Daemon – reduced to 75pts
Stalker – added as 0-1 Upgrade for Retinues + Armoured Co 50pts
Harbinger Bomber – added to Aircraft section – 1 for 450pts
Helltalons –price reduced to 175pts for 2
Hellblades-price changed to 225pts for 3







LOST AND THE DAMNED
Plague Zombies – Replace 3D6 with 3 +2D6
Invulnerable Save – add to Lord of Battles, Khorne Assault Engines, Nurgle Plague Tower
Plaguebearer – as Black Legion
Greater Daemon –as Black Legion
Defiler-stats as Black Legion-price 250 for 4
Daemonic Pact – removed from list of upgrades
Stigmatus Covenant Coven – Daemonic Pact added – All Covens have a Daemonic Pact

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Am disappointed to see that Chaos terminators and Raptors weren't given a basic formation size so as to kill off the issue with variable costing lord characters and make army list building easier, but other than that I'm happy to do some heavy testing.

Are unit pictures wanted?

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I believe this is a change that will be made in the future, but wasn't part of this first draft.



Pictures for EPIC: Black Crusade would be much appreciated!

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Most of my units are painted in Red Corsairs colours, come to think of it, so maybe they're of no use?

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Is it really the intention to only allow stalkers in the retinues?

Personally, I'd still just stick with Oblit AA but if you do have stalkers I don't see why the armored companies at least couldn't take one.

That's why this document is a "beta", to see if anything obvious is missing or out of place!

I'll let Steve answer the actual question, though I'll check my notes.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Not sure on the feral price reduction, keeping AA on the oblits or the factions rule (I'd like to see it go entirely), but I'm mostly in favour of these changes.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

So still AA on Obliterators and Twin Lascannon turet on Chaos Predators?

And Invulnerable Saves to Daemon Engines which already have Reinforced Armour? I thought they should have either or not both?

Faction rule still there...hm...

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Terminators and Raptors will be addressed before the lsit is finalised

Stalker should be available on the Armoured Co as well as the Retinue.

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

So show me that the daemon engines that have gained a save are now overpowered. IMO they were the weakest options as they were and now all non-shielded daemonic/daemon etc units have a consistent Invulnerable save.

Predators were not changed as the unit works as they were and there was no widespread view that they needed to change to reflect a minor fluff consideration.


There has been discussion ad nauseam on nealry all these issues - hopefully this revision is enough of a compromise to please (or upset) everybody. If you want things to change test it and prove they don't work as they are.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

How will LatD be hurt a lot? Does the coven change not more than make up for that? Looking froward to the playtests

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Well i was told in the relevant thread that it is an either or situation. Before i was enlightened i thought all Daemon Engines have an Invulnerable Save. Regardless if they already have Reinforced Armor or not.
Well ilike cionsistency and you are ne Army Champion. If your call is that all Daemon Engines have an Invulnerable Save i won't object

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Looks good!

I'm afraid that the snow has put a dampener on my gaming this week, but I will certainly give the Black Legion a run next time.

I'm glad the Thunderbolts stayed in the LaTD list, the free Daemonic Pacts are welcome and (for entirely selfish reasons admittedly) I can take or leave the factions rule. Although I do think it has essentially split the Lost and the Damned into four pretty starkly.