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Harbinger

 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:53 am 
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One of the BL review proposals is to add the Harbinger as a Super Heavy DC4 Bomber. I'm not in favour of including this unit - I think it would be better left for a variant list which it could be an integral part of the list rather than being tagged on to the BL list purely as twe have a model.

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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:13 am 
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I have not seen 1 playtest with it.

My view is to keep it in as an option as:

1. There is a model for it
2. It has not been played or tested - it does have a role, just no-one has bothered to take it
3. It is a 'fluff' option now

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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:18 pm 
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Quote: 

I have not seen 1 playtest with it.

Nor have I... though with an active Chaos Champion encouraging specific areas of testing that could easily change.

=====

I'm in favour of having it in the list, as it brings a couple of interesting abilities to the Black Legion / Chaos Marine armies:


- A deep-strike capability (something the Black Legion will have lost a little bit of due to the Defiler changes) able to hit hard into the enemy's board half.

- A super-heavy bomber (something that's not really been seen in Epic to date, barring the possible example of the Landing Craft).



I don't regard it as a critical inclusion, but it would be very interesting to see the Harbinger bomber tested and added. Its high points costs would likely prevent it from becoming overly-dominating even against armies with poor AA (placing a sixth of your points into one unit that cannot contest or control objectives means it has to get its 500pts back purely through killing the enemy!).

One of the biggest attractants of Epic is the "big stuff" like Titans and War Engine aircraft, so aesthetically I think it would be a boon to have Harbingers on the tables.

So not critical, but desireable, IMO.




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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:47 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ Dec. 27 2009, 01:17 )

Leave it for variant lists. Things shouldn't be added to finished list without really good reason.

We have a model for it. This is good enough reason as it is I would think.

With the rarity of models for Chaos, I do not believe we should 'snub' one when it is avilable

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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:32 am 
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The "good reason" for me is that it provides people considering switching from 40k to Epic something they cannot (and likely will never) have in 28mm scale: A Chaos Super-Heavy bomber.


Attracting new players can be done in many ways, and one of those ways is in offering something extra over what is offered by games of Warhammer 40,000 (extra unit types).

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I think it would be better left for a variant list

I believe that the Harbinger bomber is in a similar position to the variant Imperial aircraft such as Lighting, the Lightning Strike, the Marauder Destroyer and the Marauder Colossus, in that unless introduced in a 'core' list, it will likely never see use in variant lists beyond one or two marginal experiments.


I would rather this attractive model be implemented and tested, and treated as a 'Titan of the skies', as something aesthetically appealing and unique to Epic.

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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:34 am 
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Only for a variant list? Which one? Really. Which one?
I can't think of any variant list where the Harbinger should ONLY belong to.
So please stick it in the core list or we will see it in no list at all (with the exception of the Red Corsairs where it is already included).




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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:46 am 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Dec. 27 2009, 10:34 )

So please stick it in the core list or we will see it in no list at all (with the exception of the Red Corsairs where it is already included).

It will remain in the World Eaters as well   :yay:

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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:09 pm 
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Quote: 


Only for a variant list? Which one? Realla. Which one?
I can't think of any variant list where the Harbinger should ONLY belong to.


I think it'd go quite well in a Night Lords list (as well as the Stalker maybe)...


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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:01 pm 
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Why specifically Night Lords why rely on hit-and-run terror tactics? Surely fast, small and nimble fighter-bombers as the Hell Talon would be a better fit than a big ponderous bomber?

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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:11 pm 
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I just think that if it was going to go anywhere (at this point) a Night Lords list would be the best fit.

It could quite easily replace Titans in that hypothetical list...


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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:05 am 
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I just used the harbinger in a game vs Marines

It survived 2 rounds of Thunderbolt Intercepts where it took 2 damage with no critical (obviously), and killed a total of 4 units.

Now it was against Marines so they do have some of the best saves.

It was good for placing BM however.

I would be interested in knowing how the cost of 500 points was decided on. Talking amongst ourselves, we were talking of the 400 point mark. Even at 400 points, Morgan stated that he would have trouble even considering it.

Any other view on it's stats, also understanding that it cannot claim objectives?

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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:13 am 
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Quote: 


I would be interested in knowing how the cost of 500 points was decided on


IIRC that was settled on as a cautious starting point for testing.

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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:11 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 28 2009, 01:13 )

Quote: 


I would be interested in knowing how the cost of 500 points was decided on


IIRC that was settled on as a cautious starting point for testing.

As stated above, I have trouble with the costing. It way underperforms IMO.

Firstly, with inferior defensive AA (a single AA5+ if the opponent isn't stupid/unlucky), it's likely a CAP/Intercept will hit with full force. Most Intercepts should be capable of doing a wound. Not counting the chance of a critical here, but that means the Harbinger has an Initiative 4+ on the following round.

Secondly, the cost. At 500pts, and coming out of the WarEngine allotment, it's difficult to not have this thing be the most expensive formation and still have sufficient activations. As has been ruled in a different thread, this makes it your BTS if it's killed, and not your BTS if it isn't. That's a very bad thing.

Thirdly, the effect. While it's arguably* hardier than an equivalent cost in Marauder detachments, it carries not a significant increase in firepower. Essentially 3 Reaper Cannons (AP4/AT6) vs 2 LasCannons (AT4). The Bomb Racks are essentially the same. This is compounded by the fact the Marauder is half the cost (allowing twice the numbers, meaning an extra activation and twice the firepower) and actually has better defensive capabilities (each Marauder has 2xAA5+). Given that the Marauder is still iffy at 250, twice that for the Harbinger is IMO way out there.

Finally, with the other options being stuck in the War Engines Allotment (Decimators/Deathwheels), and the Titans and the Fighters (necessary AA IMO), there's no room as it currently stands.

* They have an equivalent save, 5+RA vs 4+, and the Marauders suffer degredation, but the Marauders can't be killed with one hit. 50% of the time the Harbinger is destroyed, it'll happen early due to a critical hit.

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 Post subject: Harbinger
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:39 am 
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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Dec. 28 2009, 19:11 )

As stated above, I have trouble with the costing. It way underperforms IMO.

Morgan Vening

:D

So what pricing would be appropriate?

Are we to stick with the 400 talked about or is 350 or 375 in the "ballpark"?

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