Lets try to keep this debate on good terms chaps

If it really must be dropped for D3 I think we should go for the middle compromise road of changing it to TK(D2). Can’t auto kill a Thunderhawk in one shot but it’s nearly as good.

because it's not creating a "new Formation" as you suggested, and thus it's not like the Wraiths, and thus you are comparing apples to oranges.

This is changing the stats, and structure of an existing formation.

As far as the mini's go... this is a unit that has no official minis in production at all.  Everything is either scratch built, or proxied, and since the game allows Proxy play I fail to see where this presents a serious problem.

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

Wow... really?

I wasn't aware you had any Idea what I've done with my life over the last several years.

I mean, to flat out state that what I presented is Theory rather than based on any actual play, you must have been watching me all these years to make such a broad statement.

I mean, there's NO WAY I could have already tested such an idea for the pylon in the earlier stages of development for the list, and just decided it would be more proper to actually keep what GW designed, rather than assuming I had the right to alter their product.

How could I have come up with something I liked before, and just set it aside in favor of something I didn't like, but was essentially identical to a copywritten product of a major game manufacturer.  

Surely I couldn't have been concerned that Jervis, an employee of said company, might have trouble if someone he asked to do this job were to display the temerity to change something that GW themselves had blessed.  After all, they are such an understanding company, not at all given to taking offense at things like that.

Of course.. you could have just asked me if I'd ever considered or played something like that.. but obviously you know enough about my past, thoughts and life in general that it wasn't actually nessesary, so you could just go on and make a statement based on an assumption.

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

actually, if you have the single cost 100, with the ability to add up to two more for 75 points each, it tops out at a formation size of 3, with 6 total DC, for 250 points.

It's over-all effectiveness is roughly that of say a group of Engines of Vaul.  Not quite as useful on the ground, but slightly more useful in the AA capacity.  Versitile in it's deployment, but limited because of it's lack of mobility.  So to make the most effective use of it, you have to deploy it on a hill, nearer to the center of the table, where it will become something of a fire magnet.

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

That's fair enough.

I found it a workable but I'm willing to acknowledge I've played with some extraordinarly good people, so my view on it may be a bit skewed.

You think that changing it to a DC(3) model would be better instead?

I've considered that one before too.  In that case I'd wanted to make the AA MW attack multi-shot.

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

Since we're putting all cards on the table... How many games have you played with the Necron in the last 4 1/2 years?  E&C wanted to know and I can tell you...  By your own admission: Six.  All of them at the tourneys that I organized.

Between just MNB, Zombocom, and myself there are probably 60+ games in the last year.  While this isn't a democracy, what you are doing is akin to being President, having three generals in the field tell you to retreat, and you deciding to advance to a point on a map where you threw a dart.  

Any playtesting you did from 4 1/2 years ago and before cannot possibly help in this circumstance.  The point values are different, the auto-rally is gone, many unit stats have changed, and so on.  This is bound to create internal and external balance issues.  How you think you can time-travel an idea, drop it into the list today, and just think it will be a far superior idea than one proposed by the frequent players is obtuse.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Actually, it's quite a bit more than those 6.

I actually go back to Memphis about once a year and play while there, and I have had games HERE, outside of your tournaments.

But it doesn't matter if I played 3,000 games, and demonstrated in each and every one that this was flat out wrong.  This isn't about what's best, or what's balanced, this is about the whining by people who lack the will to learn to change their play against the army they face.

They'd much rather change the rules instead so they can play the list they want.  It's contemptible.

If you army only works because you have an air assault go in, then there's something seriously wrong with either your list, or how you play.  One-trick ponies are sad, sad armies.

I, and most of the people I have always played with, don't sit around and moan about the percieved inequities of the various lists, we take any army, play to it's strengths and wring every advantage out of each situation we can.

Most of the Battle reports I have ever seen have all told me the same thing:  Most people don't have the first clue about how to handle a Necron force.  They want to try to play the same game, over an over, and seem to be fundementally unable or unwilling to adjust their tactics in the face of a radically different enemy.

So, I'm hardly surprised that there are more Necron victories.  Much like I'm wasn't surprised there were Eldar victories before that list was neutered to appease people.

Look:  You have what you think, and I don't agree.  There's nothing wrong with that.

But if you want me to believe your view is correct, they you really ought to show me games where people take the correct approach to fighting the necrons every game, and still lose the majority of the time.  

Gods know I've tried to tell people, over and over and over and over and over again what they should do, and the still continue to try to fight them like they are space marines.  Have you considered that after all these years I get a little tired of it?

It's like listening to people who want to drain a pool down to no more than 4 feet deep because they don't want to learn how to swim.

If this is such a personal thing for you, go ahead and do what you want.  Just don't expect me to bless it for you when I don't agree with it.

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

wow, you guys do realise that this is just a game, right? Not life or death, freedom or incarceration. Just a game.

corey - if you're going to rule by fiat and ignore what a lot of seasoned players are saying, fine, but don't expect any help from the community. If people feel as if their contributions are being ignored they'll eventually stop making them. I've seen it happen enough times on other lists.

mosc - keep it civil mate. If corey isn't going to change anything, he isn't going to change anything, no point wasting the good will of everyone else on it. Just go ahead with playtesting and the Raiders supplement. Most people will adopt those as the de facto rules and corey's role will become increasingly irrelevant.

Seems a shame to see so much consensus dashed on the rocks of 1 persons objections. I'm going to unsubscribe from this thread, don't want to be a part of it anymore.

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numquam culum es

It isn't like I'm ignoring what people say:  It's just the same stuff they've always said.  They were wrong before, and I don't see how they've become any less wrong as time has gone on.

If you all claimed the world was 10,000 years old and the sun revolved around the Earth, the fact that you'd agree on that wouldn't make you right.

You're more than welcome to have an opinion, and express it, and by the same token, I should have every right to not agree with you.

Like I said before:  Do what you want, just don't expect me to bless it for you.

I'm not taking it personally, I just regret I ever bothered to try to do this list in the first place.

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

T shouldn't have to do that.  Of course, I shouldn't have to contact the Army Champ by email to remind him he's the Army Champ either, only to have him swoop in, make a 3-second judgment call that people are stupid when they play against the Necrons, and then leave for another six months.  It is an old story that frankly I am tired of being a part of.  Deal with that for two years and your civility starts to wane.

I don't know what I'll do with the Raiders update now.  The list clearly needs an engaged Champ but we don't have one.  I can update it with the smaller list of agreed upon changes, but I feel they might be inadequate and I'm stuck re-doing everything in another year.  I could go with Corey's ideas but they would be wildly untested.  If I step around Corey's choices (regardless whether I think he is right or a loon) and insert what I think is correct it would set a dangerous precedent for the Army Champs and printing supplements - it will kill the effort as no Champ will ever trust me again.  If I wait to do the update while we test these things Corey is talking about I'll miss the chance to ship the updated Raiders books with the new Siege books - this means more out of pocket costs for me, more time, and higher shipping prices for everyone else.

I'm in a losing position no matter what I do.  And unfortunately I don't have the luxury of unsubscribing.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

corey, couldn't we just try the pylons at a TK1 and see how it works? it's not like it will be set in stone. if it doesn't work then we try something different.

I hate to burst your bubble, but you didn't contact me to remind me of anything.  I came in on this on a totally unrelated issue after MONTHS of basically no feedback on the last changes.

The only things I had to work with were a couple of comments on fights that involved NO detail.  No real battle report for me to look at.  It's hard to be engaged when there's NOTHING to engage.

The arguments about Pylons have been the same for 3 years.  They haven't changed, neither have the reasons why the stats are the way they have been.

When you have to spend years re-explaining the same thing to the same people who just seem to be unable to grasp it... well deal with that for 3-4 years and your civility starts to wane.

I have never "ruled by fiat" or made decrees.  I've made suggestions, I've made requests.  The only thing I ever flaty refused to move on was the Pylon, and one would think by now that the reasoning for that might possibly have sunk into people's minds.  Alas, it seems not.

After all, why would I make decrees if the one thing I've been firm on has been the one point that has been universally ignored for the last 4 years?  There wouldn't be much point, now would there?

So I've made suggestions on one thing, and comments on another.  And you want to get in a snit over it.

Well, there's no law saying you have to test them now.  You can do it now, or you can do it a year from now when you do another revision in order to weaken every force for the benefit of whatever army list is popular at the moment.

Instead of moaning about it, why didn't you just say "why don't we try this for now, and look at doing a formation change in the next update"?

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

See Mosc?

JUST like that!

Amazingly simple isn't it?

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In any case, sure.  I don't agree with changing the Pylon on principle, but by all means, go ahead.

I would LIKE, however for people to try to out formation Pylons with the stats I suggested.  See what you think of it as a workable formation that can actually do something other than just scare people.  I'm even open to making it a single, beefier model with just more AA shots so it can put up some decent AA attacks.  My thought is that a formation (be it one or 3) should be able to do a maxium of 3 hits.

I'm not set on the formation cost, there's plenty of flexibility in the idea.  I could even see capping it at one formation for a list.

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Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus