To actually finish this for once, here is the short version!

I've always liked the Tau UFO. As we all know the thing should be in an ideal world 1+ init, fearless, invulnerable etc.

However instead it is 2+, not fearless and orbital drop capable. Its actually quite neat like this. The orbital drop ability is extremely good and this (2+, no fearless) I feel is a good trade off. Anyone who hasn't used it yet should. It is very powerful, especially when combined with a delaying action style Tau list. However on the ground I imagine, as I haven't tried it under the current rules, its not cutting the mustard. Exposed to fire all through the first turn and starting out of range of its weapons is something of a disadvantage for something that might have problems hiding.

First though I shall veer onto Markerlights.

The manta really, really, really needs to be carrying a markerlight. Background wise it conducts spaceship attacks with no handy pathfinders around shining laser pens at the target. It makes sense it can do it itself. 40k wise it incorporates a markerlight.
But the clincher is Epic balance wise its too much of a chunk of points to not have firing at lit formations. This ain't the odd activation firing unguided, instead it is 1/3-1/4 of your army firing. The difference is too great to be easily balanced. Instead I think it should have a markerlight and the effects always be factored into its firepower.

Then though, back to the manta stat.

Its 2+ init, not fearless and orbital dropping. Its fine. Its on the ground with the 2+ and no fearless and lacking. The answer is to allow it to take the commander upgrade.

In this world the commander upgrade consists of any of the commander upgrades, probably written better than 'add one of the following 0-1 ethereal to a firewarrior or Manta unit, Shas'el to crisis unit, 0-1 Shas'o to a crisis or Manta unit or bonded team to a firewarrior unit (as firewarriros should not get 2 leaders with a bonded team and ethereal)'.

The beauty of this is you now have the Manta + hero <1000 points and the Manta + Ethereal (its now fearless) or Shas'o (its now init 1+) + hero is >1000 points. The ground option is nicely boosted, for those that care the WE SC option is back and the option to drop the Manta remains one that doesn't overpower (as a fearless or 1+ init manta plus hero will come to more than 1000 points and not be an option until you fight larger battles that deal with WE better)!

So step 1. Add markerlight, short out stats. Ensure does not cost more than 1000 with a hero.

Step 2. Tidy up the commander upgrade, allow the Manta to take it.

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Interesting.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

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Um...let me help you a little bit, not that I disagree with your general position.

1. The Initiative roll for a Manta is 1+

2. It is not Fearless and we are discussing, which is good. I'm not convinced that it "should" be Fearless, but it may come down to a balance issue

3. The Manta Burst cannon will be getting their AP5+ shot back, so according to Onyx, that should help some

4. A Markerlight only has a range of 30cm. How is that going to help weapons that are beyond 30cms? Short answer, it won't, so I'm not sure what the advantage might be in implementing that change. The idea of bringing your long range big guns up close to danger, doesn't sit well with me.

5. Orbital Dropping - I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, but if you are referring to the "free" Planetfall, that feature is gone. Now a Manta has Planetfall which requires the purchase of spacecraft.

6. In general, I am not against allowing the Manta to have the SC, but that does have an impact on the overall list. If the risk to list balance is above "slight - low", then I am not inclined to try and fit that in at this time. I am open to hearing what others think.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

It is however too much firepower not to have a markerlight with it, the jump in kills is massive. Hell I'd load it up with a couple of formarions otherwise so it had its own ML's with it in that case. You have to cost it as if the target is marked. If not it is too much of a variable. And drop wise it works very well with a more popcorny army. Dropped 3 moves from the enemy blitz as your last activation little can shoot back and you will definitively get 2 turns of use from it.

The downside is as non fearelss and init 2+ there is a chance you won't activated (3+ to retain after the planetfall) and if you do go too gung ho you will be surrounded and crossfired to death.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

TRC, the Initiative for the Manta is 1+. It has been for a little while.

In trying to understand your points, it seems like Fearless makes it too strong and non-Fearless makes it weak. My gut feeling is that 700 pts is where the Manta ought to fall from a list balance perspective, so I am leery of dropping the costs any more.

BL has an interesting proposal, i.e. Burst Cannon Array. Maybe a jump in the number of BC shots is worth exploring. Thoughts?

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Hmm, it seems this idea has been in my head so long I modified the init to 2+ when I added the markerlight



If you have played the planetfall option enough you will realise dropping isn't just to avoid turn 1 fire but to take the enemy blitz. With the high to hit values you will be closing and firing away happily. You will have from a drop enemy at 30cms range and you need to vape them (with the BC change you get whilst advancing 5 AP4+, 3 AP2+, 1 TK2+ if the target is lit).

Actually I think in my head the various stats (old, new, 40k) for the Manta have become somewhat jumbled, the 40k stats are I think pretty good for this model and are twin heavy railguns, 3 lots of ion arrays, 16 burst cannon sumerised into 4 for Epic purposes (they point all over the place after all), twin missile pod and 10 40k seekers meaning 2 seekers per turn in Epic and of course a markerlight (which really does make sense background wise!)?



Sorry I mean plaentfall hence talking about getting a Hero.



Given a choice if the manta is 1+ init I would never make it the SC, why risk the BTS and SC being the same formation? If its a 2+ manta and becomes 1+ with the SC I would think long and hard.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I see we are suffering from a lack of thread synchronisation?

I'm awfully keen to get the manta spot on, not to just go with whats current. Its the bigest tau model, it is I think in theory the 'coolest' and I think as the only WE of note it should be a bit interesting to use with different options and ideas.

Points wise it should be both balanced as a drop unit and a deployed unit at 3000. Currently I would only drop it. If I get a vassal game in I will try to demonstrate this.

With a Hero at 200 or maybe 175 that puts a cap on the max abilities and guns and so forth. But I think it needs something more to be fielded ont he ground, so step forward the upgrades that push up the cost but give it something special and Leader, representing the ffort the Tau would invest in such a premier piece of kit being fielded planetside.

I think a decent guns array, a markerlight, stats as current and you have a great drop unit, then you need to think of something special to help it ont he ground. Incidentally init 2+ makes perfect sense for a spacecraft trying to operate in a gravity well and reinforces the fact in some aspects of warefare the tau aren't quite there yet.


Whats that? I think 4 30cm AP?/AA6+ shots are fine for such a beast. Those burst cannon on the model all cover different fire arcs with 4 hitting any one target.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

When I chopped the AP5+ out of the BC, I also made the range the same (I think, will check), which would be 15cm.

If we are talking about AP5+/AA6+ 30 cm range, then perhaps that is enough.

I will freely admit that I am ignorant on the Manta. What I think I know about it I learned from our long departed friend, the Moray.

I never did use them as you proscribe the Manta as it didn't make sense back then. I plan on testing the Manta over the holidays against some WE lists (e.g. AMTL).

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

They suffer, like most warengines do, by being pretty bad verse Titans. One of the odd things about Epic is the worse thing (bar a few mostly Eldar exceptions) to use against a massive enemy warengine is your own one.

In that regard they are a bit like tanks in WWII. Best when used against anything other than enemy tanks

But yes I was always keen on planetfalling the manta (with self planetfall it was compulsory) when I wasn't overdosing on Tau aircraft. Avoid early game fire, get close to let rip and slag enemy shadowswords and the like with that lovely Hero. With the boost in AA cover interceptors aren't that necessary anymore and the drop option remains the best way to use it.

The 30cm AP shot is good, the 4 30cm AA6+ shots may be too much given the quality of AA elsewhere, then again should it strike down aircraft from all around it?

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

But you know what this beast can do in Wh40k?

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Yes, it is a beast, but only when allowed to use the full range of it's weaponry. I should have been clearer in my statement. I know how I want it to behave, I don't know if it is there yet or not.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Depents on how many Land Speeders

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