Great, but I think making a new special rule is outside of our scope of work.

I think maybe they need to be tested with just infiltrator first (with either CC2+ or CC3+ - Chroma's choice), before the whole assassin thing is thrown in.

What about one more boost: 20cm move stat.

So, 20cm move, CC3+, infiltrator?  Or just 15cm move, CC2+, infiltrator?

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Hmm, a move of 20cm with infiltrator would let them charge an awfully long way, but at CC3+, that would certainly give them a unique role. They'd be the perfect assault unit for coming out of a wraithgate (or from a plantetfallen vampire).

It would seem a bit wierd that they could assault further than swooping hawks and warp spiders, though. And would they make shining spears less attractive, in turn? The shining spears would still have a better countercharge move, and a far better followup move, so maybe not.

Depends on your definition of 'could assault'.

If you mean under any circumstance, then sure.

But given Banshees need to get into base contact to be anything more than marginal (5+sv, 5+FF = very ordinary), and Hawks/Spiders only need to get within 15cm (and not much closer, typically), that puts the Banshee range at 40cm, the Hawks at 50cm, and the Spiders at 45cm.

I don't see an issue with those numbers.

Morgan Vening

Well the "soooo unattractive" part was to be read differently, so I'll rephrase in the form of a statement: 2+ isn't terrible and, if left alone, allows the unit to work fine.  It has room for improvement, but not without alienating a third of the players.  

Neal's idea for infiltrator IMO is fine without anything else because that is precisely what Wyches do for the Dark Eldar and those units are well balanced.  

The problem everyone comes back to are Warp Spiders.  "Well, the Warp Spiders have this, and that, why would I ever bring those over Warp Spiders?"  Yada yada yada.  The worst part about this is they are right!  If you turn Banshees into infiltrators, what is going to make them better than Warp Spiders?  Nothing.  Because nothing is better than Warp Spiders.  

Until you solve those units being overpowered, you'll never truly solve the Banshees.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Maybe the best bet is to create a "warp spider" formation separate from Aspect Warriors.

I imagine there's some justification in fluff for the WS being a different and special breed...

Wyches have the advantage of being significantly cheaper than banshees, so they are balanced at their own price.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Can't the Eldar have just one formation that's a bit...meh?

I mean, a bunch of screaming girlie's, how 80's is that  

People still take the other Aspect Warriors, in different mixes, across different lists; Warp Spiders may be the "best", but they aren't the only choice people make.  

The only one that tends to be left out is the Howling Banshee; that is a problem with the Banshee, not Warp Spiders, though they do share the same special ability with first strike.

Has anyone given any of the proposals in this thread a spin?  I'd love some in-play data.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Has any serious consideration been put into altering the stats of Warp Spiders?

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Regardless of their abilities in 40k, I wouldn't cry too much if Warp Spiders lost their first strike ability. Or, at the very least, relegated the first strike ability to their CC attacks, because that's really more like what they can do in 40k anyway. Obviously, that would mean removing firststrike from their special rules notes, and adding a weapon stat line for a first strike assualt weapon (warp spider blades, maybe? Or maybe just an OR entry on their monofilament guns).

As you suggest, chroma, Warp Spiders are particularly a problem for HBs because they are in direct competition as 'first strikers' -- so not only are WS good, but they are also basically better than HB's in the HB;s own niche.

But you're right, the solution is probably finding a way to diminish the competition between WS and HB over the specific niche of first-strikers.

It isn't that they might be the best, Warp Spiders are the best.  They just show up more in tournament lists, which means that when people want to win, they take them.  When they play friendly games, they branch out to the other aspects.

Carrington is clarifying (better) what I have been saying all along.  

Chroma, while you say people aren't taking the Banshees because everything else is a better choice, I say that mitigating one of those choices (namely the Spiders) will nudge people back to the Banshees.  

It all comes down to what you want:
Teleport?  Take Swooping Hawks.
Tank Killers?  Take Shining Spears.
Ranged weaponry?  Take Dark Reapers.
Macro?  Take Dragons.
Mass firefight?  Take Avengers.
Mass close combat?  Take Scorpions.
First Strike?  Take Banshees.
Infiltrate?  Take Spiders.

As of right now though, Spiders win it hands down.  Eliminating the first strike and giving them back their transport ability might be the best way to go.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Nice summary. I think it's a great idea. The point of Aspects is that they all specialise in a particular mode of combat, which promotes the Eldar style of battle, i.e combined untis supporting each other. The Spiders do too many things well, making them an odd kind of all rounder in the list. Make them more niched, I say.

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"Don't use finesse, if force will solve the problem."

- Lieutenant General Michael O'Neal

I think that's a nice design philosophy for the aspect warriors.  The problem with Warp Spiders is that their stats resemble SM tacticals -- kind of the generic multi-role unit -- and they have a bunch of special abilities.  They are "All-Aspect" warriors, though I think the HBs have the least-well defined niche, and are the most likely to be supplanted by WS.