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[Units] Banshees and Overwatch

 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:06 am 
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Which is exactly what i said.

Banshees role should be against fms that have a low no of good quality CC dice such as marines - which 2+ CC FS achieves.

The problem then becomes their survivability - which is why i suggested an inv save.  It makes them slightly more survivable then scorpions (Boosts their save by 1/6 but also gives them a chance against elite CC units that have MW attacks - like terminators) and seems much more justifiable, fluff wise, than a straight up 4+ save.


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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:41 am 
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Well that reasoning would also open the door to all harlequins (wherever they may be) to gain Invulnerable save as well.

If you are fine with that, then all is good.

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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:48 am 
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Harlequins don't even exist in epic as far as i'm aware.

Why would i give a monkeys about a none existent unit when trying to figure out a way to balance an official and existing unit?


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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:08 am 
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Quote: (stompzilla @ Dec. 07 2009, 08:48 )

Harlequins don't even exist in epic as far as i'm aware.

Why would i give a monkeys about a none existent unit when trying to figure out a way to balance an official and existing unit?

Then what do the people like me whom have the Harlequins use them as?

:blues:


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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:16 am 
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Banshees.


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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:19 am 
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Quote: (stompzilla @ Dec. 07 2009, 09:16 )

Banshees.

LOL, sorry have enough of them.

:flyboy:


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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:45 am 
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What do you currently use them as?  As far as i'm aware there's no harlequins in epic.

Write i list if you want but to be quite frank i couldn't care less about Harlequins and am struggling to see why they've even been mentioned.


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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:37 am 
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There was a Harlequin list around some time ago, lets just say it was a little bit saucy for many!

Was it one of yours Chroma?





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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:10 pm 
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If 2+ CC FS with an inv save proves too good, then simply knock it back down to 3+ (Which IMO is pretty reasonable) and then Bam, job done.


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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:00 pm 
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Harlequins are an integral part of the Eldar history/fluff

It would not be unheard of for them to return in some manner as a possible support or allies option. If they did, banshees would probably be a good starting point.

This list thread has become quite defensive....   :_(

Maybe it should sit idle for another few months.....

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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:39 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ Dec. 07 2009, 01:06 )

While ignore cover sounds nice in balance theory, it unfortunately makes them excellent guard killers rather than their actual role as marine killers.

I think this is the biggest stumbling block here, so I want to make a radical suggestion.

This is a 40K mechanic that Epic cannot duplicate.

The Epic mechanics simply don't allow it.  No combination of current special rules achieves it.  There is no such thing as "heavy infantry hunters" and there never will be without massive rewrites to the mechanics.  Using this as a criteria is doomed to fail.

Just dump it.

Further I would argue it is the 40K mechanics that create the heavy emphasis on this "heavy infantry killer" role for Banshees.  It does fit with the background flavor in some ways but it is definitely not the end-all-be-all of the Banshee philosophy and we have no obligation to stick to it exclusively.

Instead, we need to find a role for the Banshees that distinguishes them from Scorpions, that fits the background and that can be simulated with Epic rules.

They are fast, even faster than most aspect warriors, and acrobatically nimble.  They paralyze their targets psychically to allow them more freedom to strike or move as they please.  The Exarch powers, which are supposedly the highest perfection of the shrine's philosophy, are effectively the 40K equivalent of Epic's Infiltrate rule.


I know it's been debated extensively in the past, but I think Infiltrate would be a good power for them.  It gives them a precision strike ability that is in keeping with their background.  They can move past enemy units in assault to hit high-value units in CC.  With their high to-hit numbers and doubling up on base contact they could almost guarantee that the high-value targets will have hits allocated to it.

It would also distinguishes them from Scorpions.  Banshees become a surgical strike force instead of just "lots of hits."  They have considerably more range coming out of a Wraithgate and are a more mobile CC threat when on foot, meaning they benefit proportionally less than Scorpions from being mechanized.  That's a different deployment emphasis.

Maybe that will work to give them a niche in play, maybe not, but even with the idea being around as long as it has I don't think it's been tested enough to tell beyond thoeryhammer.

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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Harlis should be the best aspect - so counts as warp spiders! :)

As for 'better' at dealing with Space marines verse guard heres how they currently do.

Currently a Skorpion is 4+ save, 2x4+ attacks
Banshee 5+, 3+ attack

formation Vs 6 tact marines
skorp kills 4, loses 1 1/2
1. Banshees kills 2 2/3, loses 1 1/9
CC2+ inv save banshees
1. kills 3 1/3, loses aprox 3/4 of a unit

vs guard company in hard cover 8x6 5x5  8/6 10/6 18/6
skorp kills 4, loses 1 1/2
2. Banshees kills 2 2/3, loses 1 & apr7/10
CC2+ inv save banshees
2. kills 3 1/3, loses 1 & aprox 1/3 of a unit

in no cover
skorp kills 8, loses 1 1/2
3. Banshees kills 5 1/3, loses 1 apr 4/10
CC2+ inv save banshees
3. kills 6 2/3, loses 1 & aprox 2/5's of a unit

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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:56 pm 
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Curses Neal got in before me with a well worded post. I'm all for ignore cover or infiltrate :)

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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:33 pm 
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Quote: (Mephiston @ Dec. 07 2009, 05:37 )

There was a Harlequin list around some time ago, lets just say it was a little bit saucy for many!

Was it one of yours Chroma?

There are two harlequin lists, FYI.  One was Sotec's ally list which was massively devastating.  The other is mine which is in the experimental phase.  I think I labeled it version 0.7 (it doesn't even get a 1.x yet).

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 Post subject: [Units] Banshees and Overwatch
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:19 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Dec. 07 2009, 23:39 )

I know it's been debated extensively in the past, but I think Infiltrate would be a good power for them.  It gives them a precision strike ability that is in keeping with their background.  They can move past enemy units in assault to hit high-value units in CC.  With their high to-hit numbers and doubling up on base contact they could almost guarantee that the high-value targets will have hits allocated to it.

Wouldn't sniper give them the same impact without giving Eldar yet more movement bonuses?

The Eldar list is already a 'greedy' list. It gives 'hit and run' to units that should not have them like Wraithguard. It makes no differentiation in these regards. The last thing Eldar need more of is extra movement bonuses IMO.

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