So, no doubt an unpopular topic. I see little reason with the list structure as it is to go for a Tau army under 12 activations - Indeed I would be aiming for around 14.

One thing that allows me to do this is the list structure with its 1/3 support and cheap formations.

High activation to points can cause no end of problems in Epic and indeed is one of the things that has led to tourney armies getting 'blander' as time goes on.

I notice with the upgrade system there is little incentive to make formations bigger and instead get more. Can this be altered? An increase for upgradable formations and decrease in upgrade costs maybe to make it more attractive?

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TRC, you don't think that taking tiny formations that get broken with 2 or 3 kills is an incentive, even if it does give an activation advantage?

I want as much survivability in my formations as I can get. The Tau are fragile. 4 unit fms aren't that useful in terms of both their output of fire and their survivability.

Simply picking at the enemy (even using co-ord with small formations) when I have a massive activation advantage is a really boring way to play them, I've found - for both sides. You have to use up 2-3 formations in a co-ord to enact a similar amount of shooting that a larger formation can do alone or with one other formation. It's much more exciting to use co-ord when you don't have a huge advantage. Firstly, you tend to really hurt a formation and secondly, it gives a bit of excitement when you know that you can't do it willy-nilly.

I have always found my games exciting because they are often close and having 14 activations really doesn't make a list fun for either side IMO. When an opponent says "14 activations?!" I know they aren't too thrilled.

All this said, I find it really interesting there are so many different ways to play the Tau list. I kind of like that.

Dobbsy, I think the point that TRC is trying to make has more to do with balance than play style. Keep in mind, he usually approaches things from a tournament perspective, which sometimes subordinates "fun" for effectiveness.

TRC: I think you've convinced me to try a spam/popcorn list. Would you care to offer a 3000 pt list that you think would demonstrate the concept? I say that so that we might have the same reference point vs. "well MY popcorn list got trashed".

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Obviously, I'm not TRC, but the idea behind a popcorn list is that you have so many activations that even with a large portion of them broken you will have enough of an activation advantage for the smaller formations to overcome larger, more durable formations.  Breaking on 2-3 kills is perfectly acceptable, assuming you can have enough activation mass.

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Honda:  You probably know all this, but I'll lay it out anyway.  Popcorn lists have to be flexible.  They need to be able to place BMs across a large area so that the popcorn can concentrate fire.  That means speed and/or range.

While I think it should be tried, I'm skeptical that a popcorn army will work especially well for Tau.  While they have no shortage of being able to place BMs, they lack range.  Almost everything is going to have to be as fast as possible.


As far as a list... I'd build it around lots of FW in Devilfish and lots of Recon formations for speed and MLs and Coord Fire (if you need it).

A formation of Kroot or two would probably not be bad.  They can threaten assault and help with area control, allowing your other formations to move more effectively.  They can garrison on OW (with Krootox - still fairly cheap) and in cover will be pretty durable compared to your other formations.

A couple heavy hitters, like a formation of Broadsides and a flight of AX-1-0 should be included for hard targets.  Also, an Orca with FW for an assault could be potentially useful (break an enemy formation by fire and then assault for the wipeout).  A stealth formation could also be very useful in ways similar to an air assault, so that might be a light-weight alternative.  Just limit the bit ticket items to 2-3 so you keep your count up.  

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Coord fire might help in that it could potentially allow a lot of the popcorn to go quickly.  However, the point of a popcorn list is that the activation advantage effectively creates an extended "coordinated fire" period after the enemy runs out of activations.  The popcorn can plan exactly where to go and count on certain formations not being there to counter-attack.  Front-loading, a la alpha strike, is helpful but short range Tau that try to do so too early in the turn may find themselves facing an enemy that can still react effectively.

I understand popcorn is a way to use Coord Fire a lot.  I'm just saying it might be a case of using coord fire just for the sake of using it, not because it's any better than a traditional option.  Overall, I'd say it's still going to be something to regard as an attack of opportunity and not something to build a strategy around.

Also important, Coord Fire doesn't exactly grow on trees.  It's an add-on for the cheapest formations, which means you either have to buy expensive formations or upgrade.  Either way, it impedes raw activation count.

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Neal

Neal, totally agree with your points as I read this description of a force



I think by having to accomplish all the things you're talking about in the above, you quickly begin moving away from popcorn.

In my mind, a Tau popcorn list would probably get something like 3-4 foot FW cadres, which would allow you to pick up at least 12 support formations. If a lot of those end up being Recon formations, with whatever mix you think is appropriate, then a battery of Skyrays...say perhaps 3 formations. That would give you a lot of mobility, indirect seeker fire, theoretically the ability to cover objectives, etc.

What I don't see that allowing you is the ability to stand in the face of determined assaults, from say SMs or the aforementioned "Krieg" type of IG list that can spit out lots of infantry formations, Hydras and then enough artillery to just fracture you.

That's why I want to see what TRC comes up with from a list perspective. I have my ideas on how you might approach the list, but it isn't tuned for tourney play. I would never consider doing that at a tournament because I just don't think you'd be able to handle everything that might show up. I do want to try this, just to see if I have too many assumptions and get a better feel for how those formations would work together, but I think that top tier players (which is not me) would beat you up pretty badly.

We've looked at the popcorn issue in previous versions, but not in depth with the 6 series. It does bear looking into however.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Yep I agree. However my point - I must have made it badly - is that the Tau "popcorn" isn't flexible - it's a one-trick pony - and even with high activtions, is so fragile vs the output of fire that your activation count would be pretty pointless due to attrition. In my experience Tau need a lot of heavy/solid firepower to be effective. Lots of recon isn't heavy firepower and that sort of popcorn that TRC is talking about would not do that well in a tourney as obivously you have to withstand lots of different army make-ups. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that the popcorn list would have a seriously hard time vs a lot of WE/RA units (Leman Russ etc etc) with just AP/AT weaponry and as Honda mentions, if you start taking "heavy hitters" your count goes down (from sheer cost) and it becomes less popcorn and...



...this point becomes quite true.