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Can all you guys please play nice?
Ginger
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:58 pm 
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Been watching with interest. On AA with ML, I have a feeling this might prove a little complex because of the way the Air rules work.

As you all know, the AA process is for the A/c to 'fly' a route onto the table to the point where it will perform its action, and in the end phase to 'fly' to a table edge. AA is deemed to be able to fire if the route taken passes into range of the ground AA unit.

The ML suggestion adds another dimension because now you have to check whether the A/c is simultaneously in range of the ML unit and the AA unit. If the suggestion is for extended AA range for ML targets (75cm as opposed to 30cm without), the effect is to have a series of AA 'bubbles' around ML units within 75 cm of the ground AA, with an additional 30cm bubble around the ground AA unit itself.  

While this is just about OK on paper, I have a feeling it may be a bit impractical 'in the heat of battle' because of the extra elements in the equation:- is it in ML range; is the ML bubble in AA range; does the AA get +1 ('cos exceptions get forgotten) etc.

I guess it is worth having a go just to see if these fears are groundless, though if ML AA is adopted, I suspect there will be people who question 75cm AA range even if it is provided by ground units. This would also make air-dropped ML drones very powerfull (they suddenly get AA cover . . . )

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zombocom
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:05 am 
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Ginger: it's 60cm, not 75.

Also this would in all ways be a downgrade; at best the AA will be the same as now, and when unlit it'll be a lot worse.




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Morgan Vening
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:52 am 
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Quote: (Ginger @ Nov. 13 2009, 22:58 )

Been watching with interest. On AA with ML, I have a feeling this might prove a little complex because of the way the Air rules work.

As you all know, the AA process is for the A/c to 'fly' a route onto the table to the point where it will perform its action, and in the end phase to 'fly' to a table edge. AA is deemed to be able to fire if the route taken passes into range of the ground AA unit.

The ML suggestion adds another dimension because now you have to check whether the A/c is simultaneously in range of the ML unit and the AA unit. If the suggestion is for extended AA range for ML targets (75cm as opposed to 30cm without), the effect is to have a series of AA 'bubbles' around ML units within 75 cm of the ground AA, with an additional 30cm bubble around the ground AA unit itself.  

While this is just about OK on paper, I have a feeling it may be a bit impractical 'in the heat of battle' because of the extra elements in the equation:- is it in ML range; is the ML bubble in AA range; does the AA get +1 ('cos exceptions get forgotten) etc.

I guess it is worth having a go just to see if these fears are groundless, though if ML AA is adopted, I suspect there will be people who question 75cm AA range even if it is provided by ground units. This would also make air-dropped ML drones very powerfull (they suddenly get AA cover . . . )

A couple of things...

The AA Bubble thing isn't a whole lot more complex than it currently is. There isn't two seperate bubbles. The Skyrays would always get to shoot at 60cm (corrected by Zombo), they aren't guided. All that matters is whether they get the +1, which is usually going to be simple enough. One of the reasons for the suggestion in the first place was the removal of the exception.

The drone issue is, at least at this point, moot. Heavy Gun Drones (the ones with MarkerLights) don't exist in the latest incarnation, and even in the previous one, weren't air-droppable by Tiger Sharks. Manta's and Orca's could still do it, but they can carry Pathfinders and Stealthsuits anyway.

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Onyx
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:54 am 
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Ginger's point about slowing the game down is very valid (and I made a similar point before).

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:06 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Nov. 13 2009, 20:46 )

1. Based on how markerlights work, should they be used to track aircraft that are speeding across a sky? I thought the whole thing about ML were that you need to hold them on a target for other units (including aircraft) to target the squad. If that is the case, I fail to see how you can ML something moving at times 'x' the speed of everything else on the board.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:04 am 
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So based on the proposal (which I am still not sdold on myself) what is the actual comparison to what it is currently?

What does 1 or a unit of these hit on now? Then, with the change, what are the chances to hit?

Also, where is the Markerlight measured from? This is still not clear.

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Morgan Vening
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:10 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Nov. 14 2009, 08:04 )

So based on the proposal (which I am still not sdold on myself) what is the actual comparison to what it is currently?

What does 1 or a unit of these hit on now? Then, with the change, what are the chances to hit?

Also, where is the Markerlight measured from? This is still not clear.

Basic comparison to now.

Skyray's effectiveness inside 30cm is exactly the same as now.
Skyray's effectiveness outside 30cm, to 60cm is either exactly the same, or half as effective.

Currently it shoots twice at 5+ to 60cm.
Under this proposal, it shoots twice at 6+ to 60cm, and gets +1 (5+) if the aircraft is MarkerLit.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean where it's measured from. It just adds a second boolean (true/false) question to the existing one. Not sure what Zombo's intention is, but here's mine.

-Did the Aircraft enter the ground based AA's Flak radius(60cm)? (existing rule)
-Was the Aircraft within a Markerlight radius within that Flak radius(60cm)?

Uses the exact same rules as Markerlights, adjusted for the difference in air combat rules.

And yes, it does have the potential to slow the game down a little, but it also potentially fixes several issues, both in the pro and con, as well as removing a rule exception.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:15 pm 
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Yep. It just makes AA follow the same rules as everything else.

The Markerlight can be the one from the skyray or any other ML. If the plane is lit it's AA5+, else it's AA6+.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:16 pm 
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I agree with Gavin that it could become overly complicated / slow the game down unnesesarily.


So an alternate proposal:


Skyrary Missiles:

30cm AA5+
and
60cm AA5+


Increased effectiveness at shorter ranges, can no longer dominate a large swathe of the board so effectively, and so has to stick near to formations a skyray formation is protecting (synergy).

Upgrade price could drop to 75pts.




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zombocom
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:17 pm 
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Why would some of the missiles be shorter ranged?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:18 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ Nov. 14 2009, 12:17 )

Quote: 

an alternate proposal:


Skyrary Missiles:

30cm AA5+
and
60cm AA5+
Why would some of the missiles be shorter ranged?

It represents it having more time to fire more missiles if the enemy plane flies closer (spends more time flying over it), rather than having literally shorter ranged missiles.


It does what you're proposing (making the Skyray less powerful at long range) without the slow-down effect of plotting approach routes that don't pass over Markerlights.




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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:21 pm 
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I think the point that, at 100 points a pop, a Skyray isn't so cheap to begin with. Buying three means you lose a formation or two. If you discount this then i don't know how to convince you that the skyray should stay as it is.

As a test, would people care to write up a balanced(as in, able to cope with all unit types in the game across a blind tourney situation) Tau tourney list of 3K and tell me just how many SRs they would fit in their list? Make sure you:

A/aim for approx 9-10 activations and
B/include Air power (AX 1-0 for killing WEs) and
C/recon/ML elements in your list (other than SRs)
D/no formations that break after 2 kills (i.e. no fms of 4 or less).


Cheers all.

I am very curious to know how people can build a good tourney list with so many SRs at 100 points each. I'm betting it will be a challenge to you when you ad more than 3 Skyrays in

Just for the record, I am strongly against making ML's have to hit aircraft or making the Skyray AA6+.
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zombocom
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:24 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 14 2009, 12:18 )

Quote: (zombocom @ Nov. 14 2009, 12:17 )

Why would some of the missiles be shorter ranged?

It represents it having more time to fire more missiles if the enemy plane flies closer (spends more time flying over it), rather than having literally shorter ranged missiles.

That same justification should then be used for all AA fire, hell, all gunfire.

There's no good reason for the skyray to be better at shooting at close range, but a hunter or hydra to remain the same.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:25 pm 
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Quote: 

There's no good reason for the skyray to be better at shooting at close range, but a hunter or hydra to remain the same.

Balance? :)

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Can all you guys please play nice?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:28 pm 
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Quote: 

There's no good reason for the skyray to be better at shooting

High tech....

It's like the difference between WW2/1950s AA machinegun fire compared to modern age Radar or IR guided Surface to air missiles.
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