I copy paste it here from the Salamanders thread:
Salamanders BTS needed the Warp Spiders, Revenants and Aspect Warhost to be whiped out.
But this led to a question: The Warp Spiders killed with First-Strike all Salamanders units within range of the Warp Spiders. We whereunsure if the supporting Aspect Warhost could then lend Supporting Fire? The Aspect Warhost was in range of the Salamanders but none of the Warp Spiders where in range to the Salamanders. We said yes which resulted to a +10 for the Eldar instead of a +6 for the Assault Resolution roll (with +0 for the Salamanders).

Another question came up in the first assault of the same game:
After the charge move (in this case an Air Assault) a Vulcan Dreadnought was within 15cm of enemy units. After allocating non-MW hits and making armour saves it was now time to roll for hits for MW-attacks. But now all enemy units within 15cm of the Vulcan Dreadnought were destroyed from non-MW hits. So could the Vulcan Dreadnought still use his FF-MW attack from it's Multi-melta or not?

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If nothing is left in range after First Strike attacks have been made (and saved against), then no attacks would have taken place.


MW and normal attacks are rolled at the same time, but allocated seperately.

So the answer is yes, the FF-MW attack would have been 'stretched' and allocated to a unit in range of another salamander unit Engaged in the Firefight, in the same manner as ranged firepower can sometimes be stretched.

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So the Aspect Warhost (not the Warp Spiders who actually assaulted) which where within 15cm of the Salamanders' survivors couldn't lend supporting fire?

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If the Warp Spiders had killed everything within 15cm of them and the remaining Salamander units are outside of 15cm of the Warp Spiders then you cannot allocate any more hits to them in any way.
Go straight to the combat resolution roll from there.

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They would be in a *position* to provide support fire, but they would have no targets for their attacks, two seperate conditions.

Only units that are "directly engaged", that is, within 15cm of an actual assaulting enemy unit, not supporting unit, may be targets in an assault.

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Interesting. Thank you guys for clarifying this.
So actually we played it wrong (allowed supporting fire) but in the end the Salamanders won the game anyway.

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Have you always played this element of the game wrong? It could have significant effects in some cases.

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To clarify a bit...

Support fire can only be allocated to units in range of the assaulting formation.

It doesn't matter if you have 100 units from support formations and the defender formation within 15cm range of each other.  Shots are only fired at the defender units which are directly involved in the assault.



First,  this situation would never occur.  You have a misunderstanding of the sequence of play.

MW attacks are rolled at the same time as regular attacks.  Range is determined at that time.  It's not possible for a regular hit to blast a target away and then prevent the MW attack due to lack of targets.  The MW hit is scored before any hits are allocated or saved, when all targets are still present.

MW hits are allocated after regular hits have been resolved.


Second, you don't track which unit scored which hit for purposes of allocation.  The only requirements for hit allocation is range and line of sight and range from any unit in the formation.  There are no distinctions between which unit and which weapon are used to qualify for LoS or Range.  The source of the original hit is irrelevant.

So, even if all the units in range from the Dread died, it doesn't matter.  As long as any enemy unit is in range and LoS of any of your units, the hit can be allocated to that unit.


Yes, this can make for some odd results, like an attack from a Dread hitting something on the opposite end of the assault, possibly quite far away.  However, it keeps players from having to track which units scored which hits in order to know which enemy units can be allocated hits.  It also keeps people from doing "gamey" things like allocating all the hits to the units around a Dreadnought so that when they all die, the MW hits are wasted.

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Neal

Actually this was the first time in an assault that all units within 15cm where killed before supporting fire.  

And i had in mind the "flying powerfist" of Terminators whose CC-MW attacks aren't wasted even if after non-MW attacks their btb targets are destroyed. But to be sure i asked here.

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OK, I'm all confused now. Is that meant to be interpreted as "and in a position to attack any enemy within 15cm of the attacking or defending formation"?

I always interpreted "in a position to attack" meant "within 15cm and LOS of the enemy participating formation".

Seems strange that if two large formations (say an IG Infantry Company and a Big Ork Mob) are in straight lines opposing each other 10cm apart, and the Ork Mob is clipped on an end by a Sentinel Squad, only 2 or 3 Infantry get to support.

Suppose it goes part and parcel with the whole "Orks can't fire on the IG either", but is still a little weird.

Morgan Vening

S = Supporter
A = Assaulter
D = Defender


S1<-10cm->D1<-5cm->D2<-5cm->D3<-10cm->A1

A1 attacks and kills (or kills not) D3 in FF. S1 can't support the assault because D1 isn't within 15cm range to A1. D1 isn't "directly involved" in the assault.

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That's correct.  It's essentially an arbitrary limit for the purposes of game play and I agree that it creates oddities like you describe sometimes.

As you note, the problem is the Orks can't fire back.  If you allowed them to fire back, then the next question becomes "Then why can't this other close formation shoot as well?"  In the end, you have to either allow mass everyone-in-range-of-anyone-is-in-the-assault scrums, or you have to break the chain at some arbitrary point.

E40K allows the "everyone in range is in the fight" approach.  Jervis decided against it in EA because an entire game can come down to a single assault because the majority of one of the armies breaks.  That's just not fun.

Could the "break point" have been different in EA?  Sure.  But it's not.

I'm not sure there's a case for making it different because no matter what you do, it's still arbitrary and at the break point you will have some weirdness.

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Neal

I believe this was one of the amendments added to stop 'gameyness'. Remember that formations providing supporting fire cannot be hurt, so in the past 'clipping' attacks were even more formidable because they could be set up to bring in huge amounts of supporting fire with limited risk. So supporting fire was restricted to only hit enemy units that were directly involved in the assault. An example might demonstrate this better

A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1   A2  A2  A2  A2  A2  A2  A2    B B B B
C1 C1 C1 C1 C1 C1 C1 C1 C1 C1 C1 C1   C2 C2 C2 C2      B B B B

If formation "A" assaults "C", all "A" and "C" units can engage. Formation "B" is in position to support "A" by firing on the "C2" units (the "C1" units are more than 15cm away). The defender ("C") can allocate any hits suffered, so assuming the spacings shown, he is permitted to put them on the "C2" units first. If all "C2" units die, then "B" cannot provide supporting fire because there are no longer any units in range. However any "C2" units that survive will get supporting hits allocated to them and so are likely to die anyway. In any event, "B" started in position to support.

Instead of the above, if formation "B" assaults "C" with "A" in support, only the "A2" units can provide supporting fire as they are the only units in range of the "C2" units "directly involved" in the assault.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

That makes a lot more sense. So what your saying is that you take ur cas from C2 units thus not allowing the B units to take part in the assault.
Is that correct.

So Who's on first