I think that is indeed overly judgemental.

As someone who sits firmly in the middle ground between anal retentive competative player and selfish carebare fluffbunny, it may not make you a bum hole, but I do think you're very wrong to see things in such a binary either/or manner. There are all sorts of shades of opinion between "it's fine" and "it's the preserve of WAAC douchebags" that you're brushing aside.

It is, additionally, quite insulting to say that most of the people out there who disagree with a particular rule and would like to see it changed are behaving in a selfish and immature manner (effectively what you're saying)... I've always tried to hold the view that people are allowed to disagree on how appropriate/good rules are, and not have to stoop to ad hominem attacks when an impasse is reached.

T'aint nessesary, and might not reflect all that well upon what kind of environment can be expected from Epic tournaments, if one was reading your words 'cold', without having been to a few tournaments like I have.

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I bet you would be tempted to use it at least once though


I bet he was really worried as you about faced the 2nd formation (what is he doing, is it some trick?), until he realised you were going



My worst tourney experience was at a blood bowl one year. The chap I was playing I think had flown in from somewhere in Europe and end of the game flat out denied I had scored 2 touchdowns to draw, saying it had only been one and he had won.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Players are not only allowed to change the rules for their own games if they don't like/agree with them but are encouraged to do so.

The problem I and it seeems others have is with the overly negative attitude to tournaments and players who attend them by gamers who don't/rarely attend them.

Here in the UK we have a group of guys (epic-UK) who are trying to keep epic alive and in GW's mind for future development. This involves trying to get an active tournament scene to encourage people to take up epic.

The work done by these guys is constantly being undermined when those who have been encouraged to come and view this site see posts about rules being wrong,WAAC players at tournaments,power gamers,unsporting players at events etc. etc. etc.

Things like these discussions are actualy turning people away from taking up epic here in the UK.

At the gaming club I go to (1st Co Vets) we get 40k players constantly asking about epic,especially, is it better than the 40k mind set at tournaments.We are finding it harder and harder to back up our claims when those players see some of the post's on here.

I agree, naturally, that they are always shades in between; I'm a big fan of fuzzy logic.

It is not that people who want a rule change that I'm complaining about. It's those who want a rule change and then follow on to insult others. An occurrence that crops up again and again

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I agree that there has been (and in some cases still is) ill feeling, and unintentionally I've had my hand in some of it through my lack of clarity when writing (which i regret, because I've only had fun at EpicUK tournaments)... unfortunately the EpicUK group have long made their feelings clear about this forum (just read Matt Otter's post in this very thread, for example, to see a negative attitude expressed), and with such low-level sniping going on back and forth between the TacComms and UK tournament communities it's unsurprising to me that EpicUK is encountering some difficulties in presenting the community as friendly and welcoming.

Like EpicUK, the members of this forum too attempt to support Epic, largely not through tournaments (though some do occur), but mostly through writing and testing community army lists and professionally produced supplements* like Raiders, Siege, Total War, and others still to come, which EpicUK has refused to partake in despite assurances that their voice will be heard, and apparently rejects the merit of any and all army lists produced by the fellows here / the ERC system. Comments about how this forum is 'cliqish' and hostile, etc. have also understandably caused ill feeling and given off a poor impression of UK tournaments (one that I know first hand is not true)... so I think the blame for the bad blood is to be equally levvied at both groups, to be honest.

Neither community has acted in an unflawed manner, and it's past high time both groups took stock of where they are, and where their current course will take them if left unchecked.



One thing I do think would help to close the rift would be some sort of combined project that both groups could work on in a unified manner, possibly some kind of large supplement project developed here on TacComms but led and Championed by a prominent EpicUK member, with engagement from other EpicUK members too... I admit to being a hopeless idealist there so the idea is probably a non-starter for a number of reasons (not the least includes the time commitment required), but I am sure that such a move would salve the undeniable wounds that seperate TacComms and EpicUK.

Whether that is an appealing prospect, to either group, I don't know.




*Though the regular fruitless yet irrepressable pitches of models to Forgeworld by a group of modellers (including my un-humble self) from this forum and beyond should not go unmentioned, as far as attempts to support Epic go.

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Ain't no reason we have to stoop to insults in return though; "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind".

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Ain't made no insults

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[url=http://tinyurl.com/bott2015][img]http://i62.tinypic.com/205fcow.jpg[/img][/url]

You're sure that post #43 doesn't read as insulting, and superior sounding (regardless of your actual intent when writing it)?

You've genuinely labelled the majority of people who've expressed a contrary opinion on this issue as petty and selfish (my interpretation of your words) and don't consider that an insult, but merely an 'objective' label without other connotations?


I mean, as far as lack of clarity on an internet forum goes, your post I just quoted literally means "I have made insults" due to the double-negative...   (Yes that is a joke)

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No: The fact is that I've labelled those who make rules complaints andwho call others bad sportsmen for using such rules, bad sportsmen.

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Nah, they look at what is done here then pick and choose what they think is working well in a tourney setting.

The fact that near everyone comes along and looks once in a while should also be a clue that the brainstorming at least here isn't ignored. Also that the website points to here and its recommended to people looking to learn more about Epic.

Personally I think Matts EpicUK is the best tourney circuit I've encountered that has somehow managed to collect a great group of wargamers (compare that to ancients, GW, etc where there is always it seems several nuts as opposed to just me). Hell it should tell you something when the maybe-best-certainly-quite-good-I'm-unwilling-to-concede-many-accolades-to-him-in-priniciple [;ayer is also one of the best guys to play against.



The problem with the taccoms approach to list design is its length (unavoidable due to the very low level of players left on the internet), the ability to be sidetracked and finally and most importantly the fact a lot of vocal posters here are not regular 'competitive' tourney players. There can be very long and lengthy discussions with people who haven't played certain aspects of the game as thoroughly as others (air used to be a good example) and it can lead to oddities being promoted or defended in lists.

Personally I'd like to see EpicUk do its list design in a similar way to pre forum Epic which allowed general feedback but was still driven and dictatorial, but this time with the internet (maybe a developer post and everyone only gets one post to reply and post their game experiences ).

But anyway its moved away from aircraft objectives to design objections

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

That's one interpretation of your words, but not the only one, in my opinion (which is not an objective fact).

I don't think anyone would disagree with you that if you sign up to a tournament you abide by a tournament's rules and know what to expect, but what of those outside the tournament environment (who are, after all, in the majority), are they also 'bad sportsmen' (immature and petty) if they disagree with a rule and would like to see it changed? That's certainly the inference I draw from your words.

More than half the problem in this whole bad blood thing is imprecise words on the Internet causing offence where none was intended, in my opinion, and in my opinion your words are an example of such.

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Though I'm not as experienced a tourney player as yourself, I unreservedly agree.



Aye that's why I'd like to see it EpicUK-led, as they could set a more up-tempo schedule (something I too prefer).


That should be the job of the Developer/Champion, to sift the wheat from the chaff.

It's notable that Jervis himself isn't known a particularly proficient competative player, but has the good sense to listen to (and seek the words of) competative players when appropriate.

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I've been quite clear. I've not said you're a bad sportsman if you genuinely believe a rule to be a bad one. I have said you are if, additionally, you slag others off.

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That's one part of what you've said, sure, but by seperating paragraphs in your post, you seperate the labelling too. At least that's how I read it... *shrug*

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