The Death Korps list is my own project*, and so I have a little more leeway to be experimental with it than the Ad. Mech. lists, which are done at the direct request of the ERC for the NetEA project and have to conform to the NetEA standardisations.

*Albeit one later adopted by the NetERC as their sponsored Death Korps list.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

AC Landing for objectives - As noted above, aircraft can contest on the turn they land but cannot capture.  That restriction only affects objective-related goals.  TSNP and BTS (in the highly unlikely event a landed AC became the BTS) function as normal.

The Contest-but-not-Capture change was a compromise between the "It's too gamey to let aircraft swoop in and take an objective" faction and the "It's fine and simple as it is" faction.

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Competition and sportsmanship - "Friendly" does not mean "non-competitive"  and "competitive" does not mean "bad sport," nor is "competitive" contradictory with "friendly."  You can fight tooth and nail on the tame table and still settle disputes in a gentlemanly manner and go for a beer afterwords.

Personally, I never want to play anyone who is not highly competitive.  Ever.  I don't want a pyrrhic victory.  I want to know I earned it.  If you're not bringing your A-game, don't show up at my table.

Just my 2 cents.

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Neal

Well stated, Neal. I agree.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

I agree, but on the flipside, "casual player" does not automatically equate to "less skillful player". Some just don't enjoy a highly competitive style of gaming* and never will, regardless of how gentlemanly (or otherwise) their opponent is.

That doesn't automatically make them worse at the game, it just makes them disinclined to engage in anal retentive measuring of their distances, constantly scrutinising their opponent's moves to spot mistakes that would grant an unfair advantage, building 'power' army lists, etc, in order to win.

To use an analogy, the guy who jogs around in the park with some friends might well be fitter and faster than the guys who compete in the local track meet, but racing against other people isn't really his style, he'd rather jog around in the park with his mates. Even if he's not stretching himself to his fullest potential just jogging around in the park, he prefers the atmosphere there...



*and I don't, on Tuesdays and Fridays, but do on Mondays and Thursdays, swapping order every two weeks, but not on leap years...

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Ha, going round the park today our 5 month old Labrador (not on lease) forgot its training and haired off after another dog being walked on the lease by a maid (we have a maid too of course and pay her almost three times the going rate- in our case it totals over 50 pounds a month for 7 days a week, 12 hours a day - though she sleeps from 11 till 3 cause there isn't really that much to do. She's a poor cook sadly, who doesn't like walking the dog). Said lady raised the stick she carries to scare strays and went to hit our highly trained puppy who recognised this game, jumped up and caught the stick in its wolf like teeth. Lady screams, drops stick and dog lead and runs.

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

You do know that you have to destroy the enemy to get "Break Their Spirit", merely broken doesn't count...

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Well we pursued at speed if that helps, with the puppy leaping on the now free dog intent on making it play. Sadly pugs don't play, probably something to do with a lack of air. It may have curled up, I'm not sure, it being a pug and all. Her double move carried her to safety and she rallied to seize her objective (the pug) after she saw me retreat with the Labrador back to our assigned patrol route.

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

This is how you play chess.

And many other games.

I think we've been through this kind of thing before.
there are people who want a simulation 'experience'.
and there are people who want to play a game.

I've said this before, but my advice to those who don't like competative play, is not to play the tournament sceneario.

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[url=http://tinyurl.com/bott2015][img]http://i62.tinypic.com/205fcow.jpg[/img][/url]

I don't think you have to do that stuff to be competitive.  The only time I did it in a tournament was at one using an experimental rule I knew was broken, but just wouldn't die (and I apologized to every opponent before and after I crushed them).

I'm not sure what "scrutinising their opponent's moves to spot mistakes that would grant an unfair advantage" even means, unless you're talking about things like "Ah ha!  Your Withdrawal is 14.9cm from my unit.  DIE DIE DIE!"  In that case, I'd suggest just being in the habit of confirming with your opponent.  I do that anyway, i.e. "Hey, in case something gets bumped this is supposed to be just outside of intermingling range."

I've been at a tournament where someone busted out the "you could have gotten one more unit under that barrage over here... gimme the template" but I've never actually had anyone do it to me.

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Neal

I think their must be a different type of tournament player mentality here in the UK for epic than in other parts of the world.

Yes,here in tournaments, players try to win but it is still played in a fun and very sporting way. Even when playing their "A" game as it's been called you will still find opponents being extremely sporting. I think it may have been Alansa who stated in another thread that you actually find players trying to outdo each other on the sportsmanship side of things.

I think E&C can vouch that the UK epic tournament scene is not like most other tournaments that are held even though they are still competitive.

Maybe we here in the UK should just be thankful our tournaments aren't as unsporting/over competitive as ones seem to be elsewhere.

Not sure how this topic is getting off track, but I do like this idea.

Interesting, everyone hating Marines again, they must be so powerful they need another nerf like this small kick in the balls for their Thunderhawks...

I don't see the Thunderhawk landing as any more or less gamey than the Supporting Fire trick where you heard the engaged unit away from the area it can actually Firefight in.
Or the activation game (where you try to have more activations/make the opponent use his first).
Or the Scout trick where you force an opponent to move a formation out of it's ZoC.
Or any other of the abstract rules needed to make the game playable.

Rather than whine and try to ban yet another tactic, how about learning to defeat or counter it?

This reminds me of the thread where people didn't like lone Land Speeders (because Marines are evil and too powerful remember...) marching 90cm to grab an objective. Rather than counter it (with the painfully simple tactics of 'kill the thing' and 'have something on the objective'), a ban on the ability was recommended.

I'm also in agreement with the people who play the same at a tournament and at a 'friendly' table and have had no problems.
Mainly because I play the middle ground, at a tournament I don't feel the need to act like an a**hole, cheat or generally make the game unfun (and have yet to meet an Epic tournament goer who does),  at a 'friendly' table I don't feel the need to handicap myself to patronise my opponent by not using the ruleset given to both of us.

Basically every tactic has a counter-tactic, I've not found an 'auto-win' trick in Epic yet, if I do then I'll consider banning it.

I don't want to seem like a complete bum hole here but it's funny how this theme keeps repeating itself.

"I don't like this rule" quickly gets followed up by "Only anal retentive WAAC players would do this".

We've had: Marching for objectives
Now: Contesting objectives with flyers

And many, many, others.

The true story is, more often than not, that someone got a shock and would rather change the rule so it doesn't happen again than learn.

Those who take the "moral high ground" about all this and saying that they would never do this or that perfectly legal thing are either saying "I just like to put toy soildiers down and watch them fight" (which is fair enough), or are just using this as a way to bolster their self esteem when getting trounced (which isn't)

The rules are the rules and both sides play by them. Anyone who cheats can justifiably be complained against. However, if one player outwits another then it is bad sportsmanship indeed to publicly insult his opponent(s) and blame the rules.

Of course, bad rules need to be fixed. But we must be extremely rational and objective in doing so. We must dispassionately scrutinise the issue and keep our egos out of it.

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[url=http://tinyurl.com/bott2015][img]http://i62.tinypic.com/205fcow.jpg[/img][/url]

I certainly can; I've attended 3/4 large tournaments for Warhammer Fantasy depending on how you count it (a 'conflict', a 'doubles' tournament, and both rounds of the 'grand tournament'), and the style of play / atmosphere in all three was not great.

I'd say a good quarter of my games were against 'power game' style players who behaved unpleasantly, rudely even, and/or repeatedly and overtly cheated.

It was so bad in one game that after a dozen cheating attempts, when it got to my turn I reformed all my units to face backwards, shook his hand, and packed up. This particular guy was about 35-40, incidentally.

In addition, to paraphrase Zombocom's mantra : "In my opinion there ain't no point playing a game against people who view the letter of the rules as more important than the spirit of the rules."... and Warhammer Tournaments are full of the former, in my experience.

Mind you, unlike Epic Warhammer isn't really suitable for tournament play, so it's pretty much an environment designed to foster 'rules lawyering douchebags', as it were... again not generally a problem with Epic as the game is for the most part pretty balanced.


Not to be a back-patting eliteist, but I'd say that Epic tournaments in general (in my experience) are much more sensible in atmosphere than the GW Core Game tournaments. It's not location but game system that makes the difference.

"Pulsar" from the forums here can attest to that, having come 4th in the Warhammer 40,000 Grand Tournament one year, an experience that turned him off playing 40k on a regular basis ever again.  

UK GW Core Game tournaments are, generally, not great, at least in my and my freinds' experiences. Epic tournaments, on the other hand, are cool, and are bloody brilliant in comparison.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

...or amend it, which is what most of the objectors here seem to be doing quite happily.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter