In a format hopefully conducive to minimal testing

So here is an attempt to mesh mine and BL's lists together. Note the fantastic land speeder formation that matches the blister pack  Plasma dred and pred need better names.

It uses the annoying 4/4 slow fire gun but I have a separate non slow fire version as well (and EpicUk style version). The Tacs get the plasma as its easier to record them firing it than the devs with 2 shots each.

Short summary of the intent of the army list plonked at bottom of first page.

The biggest oddity is the Dreds lumped into the Ironwing upgrade. This is because - for now - I wouldn't want stuff like 2 mortis, 1 hunter, dev garrisons springing up everywhere and to get stuff tested with definite roles instead. If you disagree its a simple matter to separate them out. They probably will be later anyway.

There are crazy alternative ideas, one of the most amusing I've heard is let Scouts take a hunter as an upgrade to balance the lack of thunderbolts. The good, hunters in odd places, the bad, stack of scouts as standard!

I've removed the Deathwing Dreadnought to an appendix as only I like him it seems.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Its called that because I think its a far superior landspeeder, but no one else agrees

If you want the master of the ravenwing, add a character to a speeder. Its not worth having a 0-1 character upgrade that basically adds a bit of firepower. Take a librarian or add the SC for the fearless and inv save.


Yes I doubt it would be a problem, just being cautious.


Makes for a total formation cost of 700 points before characters where half won't be fearless.


You must hate the white scars The Ravenwing is a non codex company, who knows how it is internally organised in regard to sqauds? Plus you can count it as 3 marines per bike stand making 4x3=12+4(attack bikes)+4(land speeders)=20. Ta daaa.


Nah. Its impact was minimal in the EpicUK list due to the bikes having problems getting into position turn 1. Now they can garrison. Even if its still useless it would stay as a 'fluff' ability that someone somewhere would pull off!

Still probably change it to no dice roll needed instead of a re-roll.


Its something me and BL stick in lists. Sadly its still never used

Anyway since BL has okayed it I'm going to shift this to a new thread and leave this one for discussing overall DA feel, tactics etc rather than list specifics.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

So things to watch
Deathwing terminators. 2 potential problems. 1) being fearless makes them to good. 2) Being fearless has next to no positive effect (only helping when you fail) and the more expensive formation doesn't help activation count and picking up the warhound slack.
And also people might feel cheated when they add a chaplain and don't get a terminator with an inv save any more
Ravenwing bikes. Is the ability to garrison the formation too good? Are they too cheap as a result? Is the unit mix and subsequent lack of optimisation and also no airborne ability enough of a break?
Ravenwing support. Not as god as a pure 5 MM speeder formation? Should be 6 speeders for fluff? (If both easy solution is to add one more MM and make it 250 for all of them.)
Tacticals. Too good with this gun? For 300? Better in air deployments? Its definitively a boost. However everyone moans tacticals aren't the mainstay they are supposed to be.
Hunters. Hunters hunters everywhere. Is the ability to get 2 for 50 each too much? Or does it balance against an army with a normal hunter option and thunderbolts? Options if not are to go up to 75, go down to 0-1 for 50 rather than 0-2 or even go wild and replace with Hyperios.
Balanced against the above is
There is no way of getting 2 warhounds and a thunderbolt squadron (standard tourny config in the winning lists).

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I'm really, really in favour of 5/5 plasma cannons, especially for a list like this that makes so much use of them.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

I am too!

Still I reckon in an average 3000 point army you would have 12-18, which though highly irritating and messy with counters isn't insurmountable.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I *believe* Zombo means 5+/5+ *WITHOUT* slow-firing... but I could be mistaken.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Yes, that's what I meant, and TRC understood that; he was trying to say that the 4/4 slow firing isn't too bad because the numbers aren't too high.

I remain unconvinced.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

If the rulebook (thats the Leman Russ Demolishers) Plasma Cannon doesn't change so long we can't change the Plasma Cannon for the Dark Angels.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

The Minervan list made the change without any real complaint.

Now really is the best time to make this change, what with the netEA list compendium and all.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

I believe the NetEA version of the Minervan list has rejected this change?

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I like most of the RW above except there should only be the "Tornado" option. Typhoons aren't really RW-ish and realistically a vanguard strike force is going to take a fully loaded speeder not one with less weapons.

I also believe they should be able to use T-Hawks, well the attack formation not the support one. The base formation should fit but you can add on more bikes, A Bikes or speeders to make it a stronger detachment.

Also if the Tac's get plasma so should the Dev's. As for the stats of the plasma I would like a change of some sort.

_________________
My NetEA Lists:
Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List
Dark Angels List

Always looking to Trade!
Angel's Trade Thread

I missed a few items on my read through, I wasn't expecting unit changes that didn't appear in either of your separate lists.

Deathwing Land Raiders without Fearless can just default to the standard version and don't really need the distinction being made.

Ravenwing general - I liked the Attack Bike MM and Speeder HB.

Ravenwing - I missed the 3 bike per stand trick. With that in mind 4 Bike, 2 Attack Bikes (MM) and 2 Tornadoes (HB/AC) would be my formation at 350pts.

Ravenwing Support - I'd go for 3 HB Speeders and 2 Tornadoes at 200pts (or swap 1 for a Typhoon). Different tactical niche than MM speeders, something like a longer range fire support formation.

Plasma, I like AP4+/AT6+. I know it's not well liked but there is always a renamed weapon (Ala Heavy Plasma Gun) or just give them Assault Cannons and a note on them actually representing Plasma weaponry. Plasma weapons for devs too.

Typhoons have more weapons surely? Its from BL informing me they get typhoons now in their codex. So one or two appearing in the army.



Why?
They have the ability to garrison which no other bike formation has. In a regular marine list bikes are excellent thawk loads. The 8 strong formation is done by the White Scars. Does air assaulting bikes fit the image of elite scouts?


So below.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Sorry, I can do a list with stuff red lined in the army list highlighting changed units from the marine norm?


Well they'll get a model picture (one of my Deathwing 3rd edition metal 'raiders if no-one else has better pic) so why not a somewhat superfluous line? Half the thing with these variant lists is creating a feel of being different from the norm, I believe things like this give that feeling.

On a side note I use 3rd ed 'Raiders for Deathwing and 4th ed raiders for my regular DA.



The stats are a nod to the past and a reflection of the model range. Originally the Ravenwing speeder was the HB/AC variant. This later became available to everyone. But here in the 'signature' formation its the original weapons fit.

The Speeder HB doesn't exist (ever) as an Epic model. Certainly not as a signature Ravenwing vehicle. Further the MM attack bike upguns that formation for assaults and having lots of expensive marine formation is crippling unless you make a lot of changes (check out the salamanders) to compensate for it, or take 3-4 warhounds which these chaps can't do. Finally the normal land speeder has a MM and unless there is a fluff reason for the duplication (Salamanders) its not that hot in practice.



The notes about models is above. That niche (fire support) is I think filled by Predator Destructor's (and speeders as fire support is I think more of a Raven Guard thing). Further think of the Ravenwing doing its scouting thing - the mainstay formation is, despite the ability to garrison, an assault one, and support would be I think towards that function, especially as the mainstay has tornado's and attack bikes.
In addition BL informs me it matches the 40k Ravenwing speeder formation (just as the main formation matches 2 ravenwing formations).
Plus its the only marine landspeeder formation that will ever match the blister pack!


Having all infantry firepower as plasma is a bit much (they use it but not exclusively and most marine infantry firepower comes from Devs). Devs are fine as they are and are a mainstay marine formation. Changing them requires more effort and testing.


'DA use ancient plasma technology that sacrifices power for reliability, so assume all the assault cannons are Plasma cannons'. I'd just call them heavy plasma guns and be done with it

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

On the missed things comment I meant having read both of the DA lists with Attack Bike with MM I wasn't expecting a merged list to go back to a HB.

Deathwing Land Raiders - Ok they'll look nice but it's only a cosmetic difference. Put them under the same rules with a double pic of normal/deathwing variants to keep the rules/list concise.

I have an issue with at least some of the aspects related to models existing or not. As an example I will go through some of the models I have available
6 Predators -
3 Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons - Old model doesn't exist in rules - Counts as Destructor
1 Autocannon, Heavy Flamer Sponsons - Old model doesn't exist in rules - Counts as Destructor
2 Lascannon, Plasma Cannon Sponsons - Old model doesn't exist in rules - Counts as Anihilator

7 Razorbacks
2 Converted Twin HB
2 Converted Twin Las
3 Las/Plas - Old model, no rules - Counts as Twin Las

Landspeeders
~10 Old Plastic - I don't even know what weapons they have, Counts as Landspeeder
3 Multimelta, Heavy Flamer - Old model, no rules - counts as Tornado
1 Heavy Bolter, Assault Cannon - Old model - Current Tornado

I also have the old style plastic Land Raiders and only 3 modern style (2 plastic, 1 metal). I have no attack bikes but I know that both weapons (HB and MM) were available. There are no Epic plasma cannon marines.

In short many of us have old and odd models but counts as goes a long way as long as there aren't too many variants (the list is very good in this regard).

I have the full range of 40k DA codecies but this is an epic list and we can point to 40k rules and weapon loadouts to prove almost any point.
40k Ravenwing Attack Squadron - The attack bike may choose HB or MM
40k Ravenwing Support Squadrom - The default weapon is HB with the MM as a free swap with 1 upgradable to a Tornado (AC/HB, MM/AC or MM/HF) and another one to a Typhoon (MM/Ty or HB/Ty)

It's going well and I'm sure the list is going to be good and play very differently to other marine variants which is good to validate it's existance.