Standard number of Wraithguard or Ogryns to a base is 5, whereas the standard number of Tyranids to a base is 3 – big difference and anti-tank weapons can do much more harm proportionally per kill.

Also consider the comparative heights of the Gaunts who they share the formation with rather than just thinking about them in isolation -  it’s not just that the Warriors are big and tall, it’s also that the guants are small and long but noticeably short. The warriors tower over them and should be able to be targeted separately by AT fire as the current system allows rather than shielded from fire.

Imagine a formation of Predator Anhilitors faceing off against a nearby swarm made up of Tyranid Warriors and Guants. In W40k, realism and the background all those heavy weapons should be making those Tyranid Warriors very nervous and there should be a real possibility of the synapse creatures getting wipes out, as the current rules well allow for. If they were infantry too then all those lascannons arrayed against them would be able to do diddly squat and not harm then in any way (not counting a solitary blast marker for coming under fire) and that seems very unrealistic and unreasonable to me.

Keep the LV and give it a good go. If implementing it has had knock on effects on unit balance then they can be tweaked from here.

Seriously? *checks codex*. Oh. *Facepalm* Well, I haven't used them yet, no thanks to Raveners sucking anyways (and I hate having to buy 6 metal blister packs!)Besides, it doesn't make any sense for Raveners and Warriors going together in the same unit. Raveners are a variation of Warriors to begin with, so why would they stick around, in plain site with their slower cousins, when they could be bursting out of the ground to the vulnerable behinds of those Leman Russes.

On a side not, why are deathspitters just Small Arms? They're a bunch of S5 AP5 blasts, which happens to be more powerful than Space Marines' Frag Grenades (from the Missile Launcher).

Also, just because the minimum sized squad of Warriors is 3, doesn't mean that that's how most people use them. TBH, you don't get much out of 3 of them, it's common (as Warriors go) for them to be used in squads of 4 or 5. Most people who use less either a. don't have a ton of experience with them or b.don't have enough models yet. Of course there are exceptions, it's just what's common Besides, Nobz com in squads of 3-10, as do Ogryns.

Also, while Warriors might be bigger than gaunts, we don't do the same thing to Ogryns or Nobz vs. Ratlings and Grots do we? Bad example, I know, but we should try to keep things consistent.

So can I have infantry warriors if I base 5 to a base?

Here I think you're confusing game mechanics with miniature aesthetics.

It's also a fair comparison in how they're fielded in 40k, a "base" in Epic is a "unit/squad" in 40k.

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Not entirely true. Usually you take the Squads maximum number of Wh40k models and divide by the minimum number of Wh40k models. Thats the number of Epic bases you get if you use the maximum number of the Squad as Epic models.

eg:
Tyranid Warriors have 3-9 models per Squad. 9/3 = 3 so you get 3 bases of 3 Tyranid Warriors from 9 models.

Genestealers are 6-12 models per Squad. 12/6 = 2 so you get 2 bases of 6 Genestalers from 12 models.

Wraithguards are 3-10 models per Squad. 10/3 = 3,33 so you get 3 bases of 3 or 4 Wraithguards from 10 models.

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There is nothing saying that Ogryns or Wraithguards should be modelled 5/base. The rulebooks says 3-8. As for the Tyranid Warriors, 3 is the most economical, given the OOP status of Epic Nids. Also, there happens to be 3 Warriors/sprue. I think those are the reasons as to why you see 3 Tyranid Warriors/base. I incidentally bought a lot on eBay, where I could not remove the Warriors without damaging them, so I have 2 bases with 5 Warriors.

[...]

I think the good go is going, and it is to that sentiment that the Tyranid Warrior issue is being discussed in a thread about the stats/effect of Raveners.

From my own experiences, I have not (after a crucial first game blunder) had any real incidents where Tyranid Warrior LV status has cost me the game/swarm. They still have 4+ save, and can take cover in buildings etc. I am a little more careful with them (which is a good thing in itself). However, the LV status has implications on other units' usability and army structure, and that is why I started this thread.

I am concerned over the fact that Raveners have become as common as terma- and hormagaunts. Considering that I think that 2 Ravener Broods is mandatory, I really do not need that many more hormagaunts, since they perform the same function: Infiltrator, CC attacks (only Raveners do it better and give me saves in assaults). Therefore, I take termagaunts instead (and some hormagaunts just to feel good about myself). That is my concern.


/Fredmans

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I was always under the impression that we simply divided the maxed out squad size by two, as it's basically the same, or simply made them what worked best. Besides, do we have 4 (20/5) Chaos Space Marines on a stand? No! We have five just like our Loyalist enemies.

Also, Amen to what Fredmans said. Raveners need to be less common than Gaunts by far.

Thats 4 bases of 5 not 5 bases of 4  

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I thought that we were doing "A squad of x in 40K = x guys per stand"? Meaning that by what you posted above, we would have 4 Chaos (or cult) marine per stand, with 5 stands vs. 5 Smurfs per stand and 2 stands.

You take the maximum number of a squad and divide through the minimum number. The result is the number of bases you can use to distribute the models. The number of models you can distribute is the maximum number of models in a squad.

CSM are 5-20 to a squad. So you divide 20 through 5 and get 4.
So you have 4 bases and 20 CSM models which you distribute evenly getting 5 CSM per base.

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Oh for sure! Nothing saying they have to be modelled 5 to a base - epic is flexible like that pleasantly and I have the odd unit or army I model with less or more where it feels appropriate. However 5 is number that nearly all bases of models have been presented to us and is the number of models the stats assume the average unit to contain.

Modelling Tyranid Warriors 3 to a base is not simply an economy saving measure of recent time - it’s a background thing and the way GW have based Epic Tyranid Warriors right from the start; they are based 3 to a base in the original Hive War supplement and in the army they painted for Epic 40k army where they uniquely scratchbuilt special slightly smaller bases for the 3 to go on.

So, should Raveners *NOT* be a Common Brood then?

Also to consider is that this is a Phase IV list, so there will have been time for many Raveners to have been spawned.

Lastly taking Termagants over Hormagaunts: Firefight is more useful that close-combat, that's just a simple fact of the game.

This is my usual baseline Warrior Swarm, I'll sprinkle in Assault Spawn or Zoeys as I see fit.  Does this seem an unreasonable swarm?

Assault Swarm
3 Tyranid Warriors
3 Termagants
3 Hormagaunts
4 Raveners
4 Gargoyles

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I have to say that that is the lamest argument ever.

Surely game balance takes priority over anything and the examples set by Wraithguard, Ogryns and the like give a precedence to work from.

Nid warriors being infantry is less of a fluff crime than every brood containing hoardes of ravenors (Which are not very common at all) and also helps with the feel of the list overall as being more "Tyranidy".

So you consider four units of Raveners a "horde"?  That's a single Cluster.

Should Raveners be Uncommon?

What does "more Tyranidy" mean?  Do you actually mean "more little stuff"?

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