One consideration for the loss of allies is the changes necessary to make the list work. There will obviously be cheaper units to compensate (Hunter etc) but I think it's important that you can't build a list that plays like the generic SM list but at a considerably cheaper price. Essentially the list needs significant alteration from generic SM, I think it's well on it's way.

Ironwing formation I think should be a combined armour upgrade of 0-2 Hunters, Predators and Vindicators at ~50-60 pts each (75pts I think is too high)

Plasma Weapons - I like AP4+/AT6+ under an alternative name

If the Plasma Pred is going in then probably replace the Destructor

Dreads - Replace the Hellfire with the Mortis and the Standard with the Deathwing (Mortis is ~50pts, Deathwing may have to be more)

Tacticals and Devs get plasma weapons

Ravenwing Support - 5 Tornadoes for ~200pts

Ravenwing Attack - The largest formation should be 6 Bikes, 2 Atk. Bikes and 2 Tornadoes. The standard formation can be smaller but upgrades should make it up to that. It also can't garrison if bikes go without scout (Incidently how do scout and normal units interact. If there is only 1 normal unit left does it have to stay within 5cm of a scout unit?)

in essence a scout has to be within 20cm of another model in the same detachment, a non scout model within 5 of someone else.

So if you had say a scout 15cm away from a rhino (everyone else is dead man, game over etc) the scout is in coherency but the rhino isn't and would have to move closer or one model would have to be removed.

However if you had one scout 15cm from 2 rhinos 5cm from each other everyone is in coherency and no one gets removed (the scout is within 20 and the rhinos are within 5cm of another unit).



As a general list design note though I love the mixed upgrade approach it does have the problem of oddities like hunters being attached to assault marines to get them out cheaply etc. Hence if you go down that route having the vindies separate can solve some problems. This means assault and terminator formations are left out of the hunter/pred fun, being stuck with the best tank in the world, the vindicator.

Edit - and I take it Plasma Land Speeders are taking it too far?

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Please no ugly Plasma Land Speeder

But i'm now settled for a name for the Dark Angels Predator:
Predator Illuminator. He illuminates his foes with the power of the sun  

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Ahem. They're called DARK Angels.

I think there's probably a case for ignoring the upgrade combinations for the SM list.

Maybe SM Terminators run round with armoured support, I can see Deathwing Terminators having access only to Land Raiders (All variants), Dreadnoughts and the Commander

Thought about an Ironwing Formation, any 4 Predators/Vindicators ~275pts. Gives you the option to split up the Pred/Dread/Vind/Hunter upgrades plus potentially a 6 tank formation.

It's just a case of putting the right upgrades with the right formations and saying this is DA and this is how we're going to do things.

As long as there isn't any ambiguity you could go over all the old models and see if they can be put in (Lasplas Razorback etc). The 1st Legion has some really old stuff.

Edit: Not that ugly speeder though

Plasma Speeders is going a bit far. Tacs, Devs, Dreads and Preds is probably enough.

Oh so no Plasma Cannons then for them because tehy are to bright?

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Ah of course, the lascannon, twin plasma gun Razorback! Something else for an appendix then


That's a decision about whether or not you want crusader born terminators, nothing more. As that in Henas list and the BT list, plus maybe an oversized wolve formation list its not needed here - its just a cheap mechanisation option. The other options don't hold a candle toe crusaders when it comes to terminator upgrades.



Since I'm with EpicUk on preds being better than vindicators that seems a little harsh

Anyway sent a PM to Andy H to see if he can give his opinion as he's played the EpicUK DA list a lot and then see where go from there.

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Maybe they're Black Matter Plasma Cannons or something.

It's GW Physics after all.

mumble mumble depleted deuterium cores mumble

Taking a look at the current DA codex vs. the Vanilla Mairnes one...
Deathwing Terminators have 1 less Heavy Flamer/Assault Cannon/Cyclone than Vanillas, can have a mix of Assault and Regular Termies within a Squad (for free), and are Fearless.

Ravenwing Bikers:Equipment wise, they sergeant has some different options (a negligible difference),and can have a Land Speeder in the squad.

Ravenwing Land Speeder Squad: Can have one more land speeder than vanllias can.

Attack bikes:Same.

Why do we need to think so much about this? It seems like a pretty simple change to me. The only other differences are only there because DA have yet to be updated to 5th edition.

Don't forget that Deathwing Terminator Suqads are always 5 strong while Vanilla Mariens canget 10 strong Terminator Suqads. And if 10 strong Vanilla Terminators can get a second heavy weapon (which has absolutly no effect in Epic other that it would justify only 1 Assault Cannon shot for all Terminators).

And you forgot to mention all the special rules of the Ravenwing units.
So:

Vanilla Bikes Squadron
3-8 Bikes. Twin-Bolters. Up to two Assault Weapons (Melta, Flamer, Plasmagun)
Up to one Attack Bike.
Special Rules: ATSKNF, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics

Ravenwing Assault Squadron
3 or 6 Bikes. Twin-Bolters and Teleport Homers, Up to two Assault Weapons (Melta, Flamer, Plasmagun).
Up to one Ravenwing Attack Bike with Twin-Bolters, Teleport Homers and Heavy Bolter or Multi-melta.
Up to one Ravenwing Land Speeder Tornado with Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon.
Special Rules: Fearless, Scout, Combat Squads.

Vanilla Attack Bike Squadron
1-3 Attack Bikes, Twin-Bolter and Heavy Bolter or Multi-melta.
Special Rules: ATSKNF, Combat Squads

Vanilla Land Speeder Squadron
1-3 Land Speeders. Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta. All can be upgraded to Tornado (additional Heavy Flamer or Assault Cannon)or Typhoon (additional Typhoon Missile Launcher).
Special Rules: Deep Strike

Ravenwing Support Squadron
1-5 Ravenwing Land Speeders. Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta. One can be upgraded to Tornado (additional Heavy Flamer or Assault Cannon), another one to Typhoon (additional Typhoon Missile Launcher).

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Alright, you just validated that there is even less needed to be changed.



Simplified version: RW has teleporter homers, scouts, fearless but loose Combat Tactics. Since CT is not really important (all squads seem to automatically have it anyways), add a few things, bump up cost. Also add in a Land Speeder.


Alright, RW doesn't have Attack Bikes.



As I already said, RW Land Speeders have a larger squad size, that's it. All of there other options are the same. Missing DS? We don't represent that in Epic really either.

Funnily enought the 5 strong Ravenwing Land Speeders Squadron matches the Epic Land Speeder Detachment more than the 3 strong Vanilla Land Speeder Squadron  
And Dark Angels got Attack Bikes but not as their own formation.

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This is I think part of doing a variant list. Current 40k is certainly a source but not the be all and end all, not least because marines function very differently in Epic (apparently).

So doing a variant where the changes are cosmetic is fairly pointless. Paint jobs and conversion and the core list cover that. There has to be differences that affect how it plays relative tot he core list, otherwise its not worth doing other than as perhaps a special scenario.

So to make it tactical different enough to be a variant you focus on a list performing a mission that embodies the army.

In the case of the DA I believe that's an army out hunting a fallen brother.

So no allies, the ravenwing brought to the fore, the fanatical determination of the deathwing and inner circle raised to fever pitch, the best weapons rolled out of the armoury.

And because I'm sentimental a few old fluff references and ideas to round it off

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Ohand if noone likes the Preadtor Illuminator because it is to bright, how about Preador Coroner? Dark engough?    Or Preadtor Cremator?

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