10cm (because i imagine them as Scouts) not 15 because i said ZoC of Ravenwing unit But 15cm is just as fine

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From a purely flavor/feel perspective, I'd favor giving them Scout and a 5-10cm reroll on the Deathwing teleport*.

* 5-10cm assumes you're going with 1 unit in range to get the advantage.  If you have to have the entire formation in range to gain the benefit, then 15cm is probably restrictive enough.

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Neal

I can see why thats better for bikes, but the ravenwing speeders then - are they distinctive enough beyond being the upgunned versions?

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Scout/teleport homer for the bikes isn't comparable with upgunned/teleport homer for speeders?

I think especially if you allowed mixed bike/speeder formations that speeders would have a strong niche.  All-bike, all-speeder, and bikes/1 speeder would all seem like good formation composition to me.  Isn't mostly bikes with speeder support the basic idea of the Ravenwing TO?

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Neal

I quote myselfe

This composition is the reason behind my take on the Ravenwing.

Ravenwing Attack Squadron (effectively 2-4 Wh40k Squadrons)
8 Ravenwing Bikes.
up to 2 Bikes can be replaced with a Ravenwing Attack Bike each.
up to 2 Bikes can be replaced with a Ravenwing Land Speeder each.

So you could have
- 4 Bike Squadrons
- 3,5 Bike Squadrons with an AttackBike or Land Speeder
- 3 Bike Squadrons with 2 Attack Bikes, 2 Land Speeders or 1 Attack Bike with 1 Land Speeder.
- 2,5 Bike Squadrons and 2 Attack Bikes with 1 Land Speeder or 1 Attack Bike with 2 Land Speeders
- 2 Bike Squadons and 2 Attack Bikes and 2 Land Speeders

The Ravenwing Support Suquadron in essence is identical to the Land Speeder Detachment of the Codex list with the restriction that the formation can only have up to one Land Speeder Tornado and up to one Land Speeder Typhoon each.
But the wording odf this would be to wordy so i changed it that up to 2 Land Speeders can be upgraded to any variant. So you could have 2 Land Speeders Typhoon or 2 Land Speeders Tornado or a mix of them.

To make more of a difference i switched the Multi-meltas and Heavy Bolters on the Attack Bikes and Land Speeders.
Now the Land Speeders are a higly moveable mid-ranged fire platform and the Bikes are a pure assault formation with some FF-MW (from the Attack Bikes).

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Out of interest BL do codex chapters have a similar complex structure? Or for that matter the epic system for bikes and stuff? I really should do more than just glance in these codex when  want to find a vehicle weapon load out or similar

Otherwise it seems a very complex way of saying what Neal did. 225 for 5 ravenwing bikes/attack bikes/land speeders or any mix thereof. Bikes get Scout, 'Speeders get the as cannon and heavy bolter, a bikes get MM and everyone gets the special rule.

Said special rule would be of two flavours, 1), most powerful, terminator formation has to appear within 15cm of the summoning formation, 2), least powerful, at least one terminator unit from the formation has to appear within the ZoC of summoning formation (and then can be intermingled - note might have to be 5cm as no one has a clue about what happens with those scouts now!).

If most agree on that I think the list is finished bar ensuring its all balanced points wise (who knows what fearless terminators homing in on ravenwing will be like?).

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Gerneric Codex Marines have:

Bike Squadron
3 to 8 Bikes plus one optional Attack Bike. If the Squadron is full strength and the Attack Bike is taken then it can split up in 2 Combat Squads, one with 5 Bikes and one with 3 Bikes and the Attack Bike.

Attack Bike Squadron
1 to 3 Attack Bikes

Land Speeder Squadron
1 to 3 Land Speeders. All or none can be upgraded to Tornados or Typhoons.

As you see to represent this in Epic the Bike and Land Speeder Detachment have to be 6 units strong in order to consist of 2 full Squadrons.
I would make the Attack Bike mandatory so the Bike Detachment would look so:
4 Bike units plus 2 Attack Bikes. Options: Replace 2 OR 4 Bikes for 2 OR 4 Attack Bikes

Land Speeder Detachment would have 6 Land Speeders and all could be upgraded to Tornados or Typhoons.

And on topic: I'm for option 1. If it is too powerful we can switch to option 2.

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Since everything died here is the last list I have on file. It changed from the previous version based on some of the ideas in the EpicUK list and playtest experience with their list (no allies is very tough for marines).

Changed for the pattern thingy.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

You should probably note the variant Predator as being 'Caliban configuration' rather than 'Caliban pattern'. Pattern doesn't imply any particular weapon setup, just what its armour panels look like.

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Really? I always thought it was weapons config.

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I think it can mean either of the two things. But "[weapon] configuration" is rather less ambiguous.

Has that Predator ever been associated with Dark Angels by anything else but the sponson types? I don't think PC sponsons were ever available for Predators in 40k. Do we really, truly need a different Predator in every Marine list?

Nope, of course not. But I'm of the opinion the more slight variation the better. Certainly its a more viable alternative to the annihilator and by dropping the destructor its easy to do counts as (these are all plasma preds). Certainly if you take a formation you are firing more plasma in the game and I think that makes you feel like you are using a more dark angely force.

As for models there have indeed been Epic models for it, just like a lot of Epic models haven't existed in 40k

I would certainly love to have a comparison of mine and BL's list up, but first I need to hit the computer lots.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I know, I got a pair of those sponsons in an ebay predator lot. Puzzled the heck out of me, they did

I disagree that more plasma gives a more Dark Angels type of feel (to me it's Deathwing/Ravenwing), but I do agree that a mass plasma army is tactically different from a Codex marine force. So, carry on

Nah, Pattern refers to physical looks, configuration to weapons loadout.

For example the Lucius and Mars pattern Warhounds, both of which come in identical configurations.

Or the various patterns of Leman Russ, which don't change what weapons they carry, but do change what they look like.

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Predators where never ever allowed Plasma Cannon sponsons. At least since 2nd Edition. Don't now about Rogue Trader but iirc in RT days already you could field everthing (soap bottle tank anyone?)

And i really dislike your mate up out of thin air Mk5 Plasma Cannons.
Please stickto the proper Plasmacanion with AP4+/AT4+ Slow-firing or try to convince the NetERC to change the rulebook (that's Leman Russ Demolishers) Plasma Cannons to a more representative stat.
I guess i will open a thread for this myselfe.

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