Hm,

I too have a not thought through proposal:

if minmaxing is the great problem andpricing of different weapon options seems to be very hard...what about fixed Reaver and Warlord configurations?

For example:

Godhammer Warlord: two Quake Cannons, CLP, somethin
Rulebook Warlord: ...
etc..

You get the idea. And then price these options accordingly. I think the mechanicus isnt that great in changing their titans loadouts all the time

That was what I had wanted way back in first version of AMTL list. Mainly because of the hope at the time that we could get GW to release more Lucius pattern warlords, even if just as an upgrade pack or blister. I suspect given the recent support of Epic by GW/FW that this will never happen.

You would also need to come up with something line a dozen titan configurations. From memory AT had 3 configurations for both Warhounds and Reavers and 4 for Warlord.

And there is always the likelihood that you will invalidate players exiting titans because they were assembled in a different configuration.

I still think the current playtest list is not a million miles away from where we need to get to for a balanced tournament list. Maybe add a couple of extra weapon bands to allow for better differntaition between weapons. maybe some small increases in chassis cost or weapons cost to make certain combinations less likely or at least more expensive.

Cheers

James

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- Reaver Titans may only take a maximum of 1 Free Weapon.
- Warlord Titans may only take a maximum of 2 Free Weapons.

I would like to hear more thoughts from the community before making that move.

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I don't remember exactly what the V2 system was but I do find it odd that incorporating some of the weapons cost into the hull is confusing.

In comparison to most of the EA ruleset it is incredibly simple.

I appreciate that E&C wants to try a really simple change first, which is fair enough.  If the list can be kept as simple as possible that is great.

But I would expect that either system would be written out as about two sentences worth of rules. Without worrying about any possible exceptions it would be something like "Battle titans have the first 75 points of their weapons cost included in the hull cost."

I'm not canvasing here, I am happy to try E&C's free weapons limit, but I am curious to know what is confusing about the concept.  Can you explain?

I think this is going round in circles somewhat. The simplest solution to the free weapons problem is not to have free weapons. Bump the weapon prices up a band (and maybe alter the band prices) and adjust the hull prices to give the desired price for a given configuration. At the moment the cheapest titan has all free weapons, the new cheapest titan will have all of the cheapest weapons. You fix the cheapest titan price to negate TRC's Reaver/Warhound list and base the weapon price on the most effective multiple (Where there is one like multiple inferno cannons/rockets).

Exactly. Add 1-2 extra weapon bands and charge points cost for all weapons and then you get what you pay for.

Cheers

James

_________________
My TOEG- Blood Angels and Deathbolts
My Painting Blog- Evil Sunz, Goffs
My Epic trades list

I definitely would not be in favor of this. I hated that system for arming Titans.

I still think the easiest way is to give a point cost for every weapon, adjust the hull costs accordingly and start costing things in non-25 point increments as needed.

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Years ago as AMTLV2.0 was the most recent list i did this base don the SM2nd/TL rules:

Edit: Ans somewhere i did Titan configurations and those based fronmthevery first TL game. But the .doc/.pdf is gone on my old harddrife. Anyone remembered this and can send it back to me?

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I have many comment on many of the points in the last few threads

But I shall for now as my family is actually looking to me to be socialable say I would be sad with an absolute limit of 1/2 free weapons per titan as it does invalidate some of my Titans.  Other systems aside for now and just focusing on that I would be happier with the above (which to some extent covers the benifts of multiple weapons) and far happier if it was a global system, so either in an army of three battle titans you get 3 free weapons before paying or in an army of 3 battle titans you get 3x50 points of weapon picks you can make (so in the latter you could have higher cost hulls and a 'free' reaver costing x, a reaver with 2 quake cannon costing x + free allocation and a warlord costing x + 100 for its 4 weapons, free or in the former cheaper hulls but after the first 3 free weapons spread about the titans as you fancy you pay for the rest). Neither is particular complex my explanation not withstanding..

And the beef isn't with 3 reavers/4 warhounds (ignoring the fact 1 warlord, 2 reavers 4 warhounds is maybe better) but rather with enough activations of fearless void shielded WE that forces the opponent to play for a draw or lose. I think balancing this can't happen, its too much of a knife edge. Rather I would prefer if there is no obvious 2/3's rule that such armies are not that competitive and such tourney players have to diversify somewhat while allowing the purists their fun.

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Some ancient threads to my previous posting:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... =22;t=8619

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....20;st=0

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 22;t=12279

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....82;st=0

Edit: Found the Titan Configurations file

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I don't understand why you consider it "convoluted", because it seems pretty straightforward to me. However I do agree on the need for having pricing as simple as possible.

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I will look at TRC's 2 army lists and the effects of some of E&C's and Clausewitz's proposals on the points.

775 Warlord, MRL, MRL, CCW (Carapace), CLP
600 Reaver, VMB, VMB, Las Burner, CML
575 Reaver, Inferno Gun, Inferno Gun, Las Burner
500 Warhound Pack, VMB, PGB, VMB, PGB
275 Warhound, VMB, PGB
275 Warhound, VMB, Inferno gun
3000pts

650 Reaver, TLD, TLD, CCW (Carapace), CML
600 Reaver, Inferno Gun, Inferno Gun, Las Burner (Carapace), CML
575 Reaver, VMB, VMB, Las Burner (Carapace)
500 Warhound Pack, VMB, PGB, VMB, PGB
300 Warhound, TLD, PGB
275 Warhound, VMB, Inferno gun
100 Sentinels
3000pts

E&C
Assuming a Free weapon limit of 1 per Reaver, 2 per Warlord plus CML to +50pts and CCW to +25pts.

Both lists come out to 3150pts but 2 Reavers in each list would have upgraded (2x +25pt) weapons causing an effective loss of 1 titan (Warhound).

Clausewitz
Assuming rejigged hull costs (800/650), first 75pts of weapons free and CML to +50pts.

Both lists come out to 3225pts but 2 Reavers in each list could get +75pts of upgraded weapons. Also an effective loss of 1 titan (Warhound).

My temporary proposal (points still need some altering)
Hull costs to 650/550 and 400/225 (Pack/Single warhounds). This makes minimum titan cost as 750/625/500/275. Also CML to +50pts, CCW to +50pts and all other weapons move up 1 price bracket (Free to +25pts, +25pts to +50pts, +50pts to +75pts and +75pts to +100pts).

List one comes out to 3175pts. List two comes out to 3225pts. Both show an effective loss of 1 titan (Warhound).

The three ideas when based on TRC's best lists essentially remove a warhound titan. To me it looks like E&C and Clausewitz's ideas devalue the free weapons as they are either limited or you can take better weapons for 'free'. The simplest solution is alter the points of the hulls and weapons.

(Incidently if you've read this far my temporary proposal is equivalent to the current free weapon system with base hull costs of 750/625/500/275)

Other systems aside for now and just focusing on that I would be happier with the above (which to some extent covers the benifts of multiple weapons) and far happier if it was a global system, so either in an army of three battle titans you get 3 free weapons before paying or in an army of 3 battle titans you get 3x50 points of weapon picks you can make (so in the latter you could have higher cost hulls and a 'free' reaver costing x, a reaver with 2 quake cannon costing x + free allocation and a warlord costing x + 100 for its 4 weapons, free or in the former cheaper hulls but after the first 3 free weapons spread about the titans as you fancy you pay for the rest).

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The simplest solution is alter the points of the hulls and weapons.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter