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Another Blood Rage proposal

 Post subject: Another Blood Rage proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:58 am 
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After a discussion with Clausewitz the other day, it got me thinking about changing the fearlessness in the World Eaters army to ape ATSKNF. This proposal would remove a largely all fearless army. You would still get a very resilient force and still be able to buy fearless formations of War engines and the like but the infantry forces would be toned down somewhat.

The section I have listed in bold below I am still unsure about adding. I could apply the rule to the whole army, but I want to see what others think about changing the fearless rules for the smaller Khorne engines i.e the Scorpion etc. I foresee most will say leave them as fearless however ... which means I would apply the bold section as noted to only World Eaters units.


Rage of the Blood God

The followers of the Blood God live to slay in his name, and there are few as homicidally bloodthirsty or heedlessly ferocious as the World Eaters Space Marines. The following rules apply to those formations listed as a World Eaters formation i.e World Eaters Berzerker Warband, or World Eaters Dreadnought etc

• It takes two Blast markers to suppress a World Eaters unit or kill a World Eaters unit in a broken formation (ignore any left over Blast markers).
• World Eaters formations are considered broken if they have two Blast markers per unit in the formation.
• Halve the number of extra hits suffered by any World Eaters formation that loses an assault, rounding down in favour of the World Eaters.
• Any World Eaters formation, that loses an assault must withdraw 10cm from the enemy involved in the assault; however the losing formation is immune to any damage caused by ending a withdrawal move within 15cm of an enemy formation.


I have added the 10cm "buffer withdrawal" so that they at least have to move away from the enemy and the enemy doesn't automatically destroy them after a 5cm consolidation move. The WEs will be "broken" after the assault but can still assault next turn if they rally.


Well that's my proposal. Can it work? Can those apt at breaking stuff (TRC...?  :vD ) please deconstruct what effects it may have? Especially with mixed unit types from upgrades etc. I plan on adjusting what the World Eaters formations can take but I would like to see any weird effects the rules might have if I leave them as is.

Thanks all!





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 Post subject: Another Blood Rage proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:05 am 
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Not bad. I would like to see how it plays out.

No doubt Fearless is a quandry that effects a few lists and it would be great to get a final concensus.

I will keep looking at the thread personally to see how it progresses.

Cheers dude

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 Post subject: Another Blood Rage proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:08 am 
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I don't like putting all ATSKNF on them.

I'm not putting all ATSKNF on them.  :;): It's not called ATSKNF in this design as it's not completely ATSKNF as it also has one of the rules(they lose the rally bonus) in ATSKNF replaced. Do you dislike it for technical reasons or that it's based on the Marine rule in general?

Could the first two parts be adjusted slightly? I would like to make the zerkers a tough nut to crack but give other players a happier time. In the end ATSKNF is just an adjustment to the usual BM rules. Applying it to other marine-type forces would seem like a flow-through i.e. a post-heresy version of ATSKNF without it being completely ATSKNF...

I'd drop the first two (suppression and breaking). ATSKNF is marines specialty.
So then just:

• Halve the number of extra hits suffered by any World Eaters formation that loses an assault, rounding down in favour of the World Eaters.
• Any World Eaters formation, that loses an assault must withdraw 10cm from the enemy involved in the assault; however the losing formation is immune to any damage caused by ending a withdrawal move within 15cm of an enemy formation.


What if I adjust the second point to read:

World Eaters formations are considered broken if they have two Blast markers per World Eater unit in the formation, regardless of other unit types in that formation

So basically given upgrades to a warband for example, if the zerkers break the whole formation does.

Alternatively, I could also apply it to just units with Berserk as a note..???

Hena, other than your dislike of it, could this proposal work as it stands?





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 Post subject: Another Blood Rage proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:42 am 
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Well you could consider that World Eaters are absolute nutters once in CC. So you could rule that a World Eaters formation in an assault can't withdraw. If it looses an assault it is considered a draw an a next round of assault isplayes. Repeat until the World Eaters formation ins completely destroyed or it wins the assault.
You could say that this is only valid if at least one unit is in base contact with an enemy unit. If all units in a World Eaters formation canonly FF then the normal assault rules take place.

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 Post subject: Another Blood Rage proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:51 am 
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I quite like that idea Black Legion.  

So something like:

If a World Eaters formation loses an assault it cannot withdraw and assault will continue until the enemy has destroyed the World Eaters formation or the enemy formation loses and withdraws itself. However, this will only occur if at least one World Eaters unit is in base contact with an enemy unit. In any other situation, e.g a Fire Fight engagement, then the normal rules of assault will apply.


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 Post subject: Another Blood Rage proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:00 am 
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Can anyone see any problems with this theory that BL has put forth?


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 Post subject: Another Blood Rage proposal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:58 pm 
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Wellyou could add that a los of the World Eaters formation can be considered a draw or a loss for the winner. The choise which lies by the winner of the assault (= the opponent of the World Eaters). So the winner ca nmake the two withdrawal moves but doesn't suffer any hackdown hits.
But i'm undecided if he also should be counted as broken or not.

Other idea: The Blood Rage supercedes Fearless. So if the World Eaters formation looses the assault they WILL suffer hack down hits. But then the assault goes on as if it was a draw until the World Eaters actually win the assault or are completely whiped out.

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 Post subject: Another Blood Rage proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:08 pm 
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It appears to me that what (some?) people want the World Eaters to be is either a) too complicated to implement elegantly or b) breaks the game.

Part of this problem might be that different people have different ideas on what the World Eaters actually ARE and their perceived capabilities in combat. The discussion has now gotten very convoluted with various Blood Rage rules version put forth by list authours who are obviously struggling to implement Blood Rage into the game.

Perhapse what is needed is a complete reboot, starting again from the ground upwards - what are the World Eaters abilities in combat? What actually does their 'chip' do and what are the results of havig it? And then try to build that into a rule.

For example, if their chip makes them immune to panic and other adverse psychological effects, build a rules around that. If it makes them more powerful in combat, build the rule around that. If it means that they push on regardless, ...you get the idea.

Once a consensus is reach about what this chip actually does (and we are all on the same 'song sheet'), surely it will be easier to debate actual game effects?





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 Post subject: Another Blood Rage proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:40 pm 
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Agreed.

The current World Eaters is see as several bunches of Warbands scattered in the Eye of Terror butchering every non-Warband member they can find unless someone can point them at a more juicier targed than to butcher a few tousand helpless civilians or carving in their heads against an opponent they know they can't beat on their own.

The last two exceptions is where we come to Epic. A mighty Chaos Champion (here a Champion of the World Eaters) has conviced several Warbands to fight for him once more to defeat a (common) foe and/or reach a certain objective for the greater glory of Khorne.

Each Warband will be a core of World Eater Khorne Berzerkers (some with specialities like Jump Packs or being Possessed)with several followers and equipment in support. This could be Cultists, Bloodgors, Armoured Vehicles, Daemon Engines and Titans (perhabs in this order).

As followers of Khorne the supporting troops will prefer close combat and naturally be very good in it. Even vehicles would prefer some close combat equipment over shooting stuff. IF followers of Khorne use shooting stuff it tend to be handy in close quarters (pistols of any kind) or if far ranged to be quite devastating (spectaculary so).
Yes this sounds alot like Orks and in somekind of way they chare the same mindset.
The differenc eis that World Eaters ar e muchmore better marksmen thanOrks and that while Orks only have fun chopping up bits follower of Khorne not only have fun doing this they do it with zeal. A murderous zeal which puts almost all in a frenzy once cought in close quarters with their foe. While ordinary Khornates can "ride the wave of frenzy" (thats have unbelievable ragebut can control it somewhat) the Berzerkers of the World Eaters can't and won't do this even if they could. Once actual hand-to-hand combat starts they just snap and will fight until there is no one left to fight or being killed.
I guess they are still able to recognise their own kin and if they only see other fellow World Eaters (not nessesarily other Khornates which they could see as inferior and thus as new victims) they will come to their senses and will seek new victims/challenges.
On top of this frenzy the World Eaters simply don't fear death. They know Khorne will claim them one way or the other. So long as their death is violent they don't fear it. So in an AssaultinEpic which is essentiall y a whole game of Wh40k youwill see World Eaters Berzerkers in hand-to-hand combat which willfight until they are dead or no enemy left or World Eater Berzerkers outsideof hand-to-hand combat but still engaged with the enemy who just will refuse to flee until actually ordered so.
So World Eaters can act highly disciplined but the moment you give them free rein they will be entangled in hand-to-hand combat and then you can only pray that they will win so that you can give them new orders or else your army will be dead.
Other Khornates are a different matter because they KNOW fear and will run from combat if they feelthey can't win. On Actual hand-to-hand combat it might be different because they have lost their mind to a battle frenzy which only lack of enemies or their own death will stop them.
Daemons are another matter too. Because YOU were able to summon a Bloodthirster to your command he WILL obey you if you order him to stop butchering some foes so that you give him new orders to attack some victims you percieve as more valuable (he might be pissed at you but he will obey nonetheless). As a Khornate you won't call it magic but well...summoning and binding daemons to your will is  :laugh:

Wow. That was along posting.

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 Post subject: Another Blood Rage proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:49 am 
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Quote: (alakazam @ 22 Aug. 2009, 04:08 )

Part of this problem might be that different people have different ideas on what the World Eaters actually ARE and their perceived capabilities in combat. The discussion has now gotten very convoluted with various Blood Rage rules version put forth by list authours who are obviously struggling to implement Blood Rage into the game.

The problem was initially Fearless. Blood Rage is an easy rule to implement. It is theory-hammering that is the issue. A simple rule that works within the existing rules is all that is needed. It does not need to represent it exactly, just have some differing effect that on an EPIC battle field may show a slight difference. It is not 40K where it needs to be nit-picked. Sorry to steal the thread, but the propopsal that I have in my list workls within the rules, does not change things to the nth degree, and is elegent enough to keep the game flowing.

Perhapse what is needed is a complete reboot,

Could I ask what playtests and games you have performed or reported on to make such a statement? For those of us that have put in the work, this is a slap in the face. So if I for one am going to be told that I need to start again, I would like to see proof of games where it does not work

For example, if their chip makes them immune to panic and other adverse psychological effects, build a rules around that. If it makes them more powerful in combat, build the rule around that. If it means that they push on regardless, ...you get the idea.
I understand what you are saying. Epic is not 40K and does not need specific representation. Just a general 'shift' in an order result will do.  

Once a consensus is reach about what this chip actually does (and we are all on the same 'song sheet'), surely it will be easier to debate actual game effects?
Problem is, there is no group of people, only some rare individuals that may visit a thread, that are assisting with any of the World Eater development lists. That leaves these few authors to have to do everything themselves.

Real help will come if people actually take an interest in the lists, reply to battle reports, and open discussion on the threads. Without this, then you have to go with what is given or do your own.

Hope I did not come across too strong. Cheers..   :D

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 Post subject: Another Blood Rage proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:55 am 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 22 Aug. 2009, 04:40 )

Agreed.

The current World Eaters is see as several bunches of Warbands scattered in the Eye of Terror butchering every non-Warband member they can find unless someone can point them at a more juicier targed than to butcher a few tousand helpless civilians or carving in their heads against an opponent they know they can't beat on their own.

BL

It is important to also take into account that the World Eater lists do not want (I believe) to take over every aspect of Khorne lists.

At the moment the a few lists have Khorne Berzerkers. Now these may or may not be World Eaters. Personally I do not believe that a World Eater lists needs to be representative of Vraks, LotD, etc. It can be it's own list (or two), without taking over or bullying the other lists into assimilation (Borg!  :vD)

There are many representations, however not all Khorne Berserkers, initaites etc, need to be World Eaters, and the Blood Rage rule should only effect a World Eater specific list (IMO).

Just an alternate view  :)

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 Post subject: Another Blood Rage proposal
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:56 am 
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The discussion has now gotten very convoluted with various Blood Rage rules version put forth by list authours who are obviously struggling to implement Blood Rage into the game.



For example, if their chip makes them immune to panic and other adverse psychological effects, build a rules around that. If it makes them more powerful in combat, build the rule around that. If it means that they push on regardless, ...you get the idea.

Once a consensus is reach about what this chip actually does (and we are all on the same 'song sheet'), surely it will be easier to debate actual game effects?
Umm, well to be fair we are actually trying to get to a consensus. To do that we need to discuss various possibilites of the rule. Sorry if you dislike "convoluted" debate but that's the only way to get to the point you want us to be at. Unless we all suddenly magically agree to one design of the rule we need to discuss it in depth.

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