I'd be happy to see Seekers on the Manta (along with ML, Fearless) but not if it were to put the price of the Manta up so as to stop a Hero/Manta combo in a 3000pt game. I'm not really in favour of increasing its DC. Doesn't really seem neccessary.

I'd also like to see a SC upgrade for the Manta (which probably would prevent the Manta/Hero combo which I actually don't mind - the SC should be on the battlefield if possible).

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I'd like that to. No idea if its fair or anything but it seems very alien to float above the battle field surveying it from your flying saucer!

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I think most opinion sees the Manta as a little underpowered right now, so with the abilities added back I'm not sure it'd need a points increase...

...SC upgrade for the Manta sounds interesting. Not sure it's ever all that attractive having your SC as your BTS but it is fluffy.

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I'm usually dead set against it but as you say, it does seem fluffy for the Tau.

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Maybe as an option in the "tank list" variant?

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No. SC for the Manta should be in the "core" list.

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I seem to remember this was discussed before.  Unfortunately I can't remember why this option wasn't allowed at the time.  Anyone?

I think the scorpion supreme commander messed things up a bit and made the entry to complicated? (I don't know why the skorpion ever got it to be honest.)

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General Plumer, 191x

Wasn't the SC Scorpionfish based on an earlier concept of a "Dragonfish* Command Ship" or something like that?

(* A something-fish anyway)

Look you don't get it both ways. You can't complain about how crappy 40K is and then complain because the stats of a particular unit don't match 40K.

Do your research. Read the Air Caste thread. There were multiple proposals and we picked the middle ground, again, siding on the potentially light side as I did not want to put out a unit that would totally dominate all Tau lists. There will be time to refine if that becomes necessary, but as I keep pointing out, how many people have used them in their games?

Very few to my knowledge.

Game, then complain.

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I think the question, "Is it fearless or not?" still needs to be addressed, without recourse to playing.

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My apologies for insisting that we come close® to the 40k weapons load, instead of something that we'd made up without any information!

In 40k, the Manta has a Twin-linked Heavy Railgun (108", S10 AP1, Titan Killer), three Twinlinked longbarreled Ion Cannons (90" S7 AP3 Heavy 3), 10 Seeker MIssiles (with markerlight), and 10 drone-controlled burst cannons (IIRC).  Note that in 40k, the keyword 'Titan Killer' means 'Does d3 structure points damage'.  That's broadly comparable to the firepower of a Reaver (as I argued at the time):  One big TK(d3) gun, 'one' big anti-infantry gun (all the Ion Cannons have to fire at the same target), some Seekers for long-range harassing fire (like the Rocket Launcher on a Reaver), and the Burst Cannons make the AA/FF attacks.  Sure, it's got the transport capacity of a SMLC on top of that firepower, but the Tau are supposed to be shooty.

As far as adjustments go, I think we should at least consider a broad-brush alignment to the 40k stats, as I've outlined above.  The Manta should also be Fearless.

If you put Tau guns on a SMLC, you'd call it a Manta.

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A small side-question, mainly to satisfy my curiosity.

When did 40K units start using the "Titan Killer" rule?

'bout five years ago?

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I was wondering if the rule existed in Epic and got "invented" for 40K or whether Epic was created using an idea from 40K.