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Getting past the logjam
Onyx
 Post subject: Getting past the logjam
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:31 pm 
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We've played that Tigersharks (& Ax-1-0) can only light up targets for themselves (within 30cm range) whilst Remoras are a ML unit for all Seeker Missile attacks.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Getting past the logjam
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:54 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 03 Aug. 2009, 12:46 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 03 Aug. 2009, 13:36 )

Epic isn't about turrets.

The 5.1 Tau list has 3 Hammerhead types with turrets (Railgun, Ion Cannon, and Swordfish).

Swordfish isn't there unless I'm missing something.

Sorry I meant Stingray.

It used to have 4 types of turret (Stingray)... which you were fine with IIRC.
That's like saying that Predators and Whirlwinds are same as they are both based on Predator hull. Also it makes about as much sense.
Not a bad point, but do you have to decend to insults again whilst you make your point?

I am proposing that the Swordfish turret be swapped for the Ion Cannon turret, in the core list. Not that an extra turret type be added.
It was removed and good thing that. I don't want to see addition of Fusion and others just because people seem to have this very fiddly way of translating 40k rules.
I propose that the Fusion Cannon Hammerhead would replace the capability lost by the moving of the Scorpionfish to the Armoured list. Ie: a vehicle-based Macro-Weapon attack.

So my prime concern is making the Tau army list work, not mapping across loads of 40k stuff.


EDIT:

Note that I rated this part of my proposal as 'important for balance' but not 'crucial'.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Getting past the logjam
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:00 pm 
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Quote: (tneva82 @ 03 Aug. 2009, 11:36 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 03 Aug. 2009, 11:10 )

If my proposal does not result in a fun style of play, I'll eat my hat, and upload a video onto the internet of me doing so.

Watch out with those kind of promises ;-) I made similar "not going to happen" promise during ropecon and lo and behold! It happened. Now I need to paint bucketloads of warmachine models in one week  :oo:

I am fully prepared to quite literally eat my hat.   :D

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Honda
 Post subject: Getting past the logjam
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:34 pm 
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This is just a short post so that you know how I am thinking and for further clarification:

1. No Swordfish. That one model has even less viability than the Stingray, except that one guy built one model for the old VDR rules. So, I am distinctly not in favor of this.

So your OP, was in fact, so much air?


No I am very serious about everything I stated. It may not fit your perception of what I said, but I am very serious about conforming to the guidelines as stated. "Undecided" does not mean "No", it means undecided. I will be very clear about whether a unit is in or out. I don't think you have to worry about that.

From my perspective, this list is still in the formative stages. I need to go through the proposal and give it the respect that it deserves. The community at large should expect nothing less.

If we lose the scorp and the stingray there WILL be a gap in the list. Trust me. If you have played any 5.1 you'll understand. At minimum the fusion HH will be required IMO.

All I will say at this point is that I hear what you are saying and acknowledge your opinion.

Let's all remember to remain civil. Some of the previously expressed "opinions" are more cutting than they need to be. We are not going to discuss "your" particular position on 40K or whether you like 5.1. That's not what this exercise is about. We are going to focus on the producing the solution.

Second key point. The Core list will have to be able to stand on it's own. Period. There won't be any formal promises to develop "future" lists in the near term. I do not intend to even think about variants for the Tau as we've had enough fun just trying to get one list to work that I don't have a lot of confidence in separate concurrent efforts.

In general, I agree with Hena that this list should not include a dozen different types of HH turrets. My approach to things is to start off tight and loosen up later once we have a solid feel for what we are working with. So the standard builds for the HH would be the Railgun, Skyray, and Ion cannon.

Tigerhark MB: I am aware of what the various options are in IA3. I studied those quite closely. My impression of the statement regarding "armed with burst cannon and seekers" is that perhaps the Ion cannon are not present on the airframe and that additional seekers have been added. So, in essence, an aircraft with a larger capacity for firing seekers. Six seekers, from an Epic perspective, is not that many. Also, I would prefer pursuing this option instead of a missile armed Orca.

As soon as I can, I will review the TS-MB proposal

Restating my comments on the Remora. I want to hold on this idea. So that is not a "no", just a "not now".

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Getting past the logjam
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:35 pm 
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I am going to wade into the shallows of the discussion, having played two games of Tau this past weekend (batreps with pics pending :agree: ).  

The Tau have two approaches to warfare, Mont'ka and Kauyon

The first is referred to as the Killing Blow, the second as the Patient Hunter. The first approach seeks to strike a blow that the enemy cannot recover from, the second to cause attrition to the enemy until they cannot respond. The Tau switch back and forth between the two approaches whenever they need to. "The" Tau list will feature both styles and allow for playing both in the same game. I say that because as I was brain-storming last night I briefly considered the possibility of a Mont'ka list and a Kauyon list. But I discarded that thought as I didn't think it was really workable.


Honda, having watched the Tau list change over the years I find this to be rather amusing.  Many of us watched the Tau list grow and grow and grow until it was regarded (arguably) as being overpowered mainly due to the vast options available to it.  You stepped in, trimmed the tree, and people playtested.  Presently you've alluded to the fact that there are two main ways to play the Tau, but you are disinclined to have two lists.  Funny enough, allowing the Tau to have a single unified list that allows them to do 'everything' (read: play both ways) will IMO lead us right back to the top of this paragraph.

If I were you, I wouldn't disclude the idea of two lists being developed in tandem.  As a Tau player, you would still get to play the game either way you wished, but your first choice would be based on which list you chose, then formations.

FYI I thought the Tau list as it is right now (Honda's iteration, not E&C's) played quite well.  It was tough, but fun.  More details to follow in a separate thread.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Getting past the logjam
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:40 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ 03 Aug. 2009, 14:34 )

As soon as I can, I will review the TS-MB proposal

Isn't it the Orca, instead of the Tigershark, that had "unconfirmed reports" of variants equipped with "multiple missile racks and bomb bays"?  Wouldn't that be a more likely candidate for a "missile boat" aircraft?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Getting past the logjam
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Moscovian
 Post subject: Getting past the logjam
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:44 pm 
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I am fully prepared to quite literally eat my hat.  :D


By 'hat' he means the little cyber-hat on top of the emoticon.   8v)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Getting past the logjam
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:50 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ 03 Aug. 2009, 14:34 )

1. No Swordfish. That one model has even less viability than the Stingray, except that one guy built one model for the old VDR rules. So, I am distinctly not in favor of this.

Its  an easy conversion so I feel it should show up in a variant list!

If we lose the scorp and the stingray there WILL be a gap in the list. Trust me. If you have played any 5.1 you'll understand. At minimum the fusion HH will be required IMO.


I've never noticed the lack, though I like A-10s and mantas.

Tigerhark MB: I am aware of what the various options are in IA3. I studied those quite closely. My impression of the statement regarding "armed with burst cannon and seekers" is that perhaps the Ion cannon are not present on the airframe and that additional seekers have been added. So, in essence, an aircraft with a larger capacity for firing seekers. Six seekers, from an Epic perspective, is not that many.

Well as to too many or not that would depend on the stats :) Certainly stand off weapons outside of 30cm is always a bit nifty.

And the model does exist - the drone controller tigershark has no big guns on the front and burst cannon. Ta-da! Instant on sale model.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Getting past the logjam
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:51 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 03 Aug. 2009, 14:46 )

However these are all opinions and I'm sure you'd disagree :smile:.

I'm not expressing an opinion, I'm quoting from IA3, where it mentions these possible "bomb bays" on a possible Orca variant.  And they could easily be "smart bombs" or even Drones of some kind.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Getting past the logjam
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:55 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 03 Aug. 2009, 14:44 )

Actually one thing that I think could help would be to enhance all units 15cm range firepower to offset the poor assault capability.

Well maybe things come down to now a simple choice between two ways forward Honda?

The 5.1 list with upped 15cm firepower (which has cropped up before online, I can redo it easily enough) and greater focus on FW, or E&C's more daring change of a core mechanic affecting every formation? Which approach goes with your idea of Tau armies?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Getting past the logjam
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:07 pm 
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Current list works.


It does work, but in several important respects it doesn't play particularly like a Tau army list should play, if you want a list to reflect the background.

That lack of representation of the background is what my proposal seeks to address.


Actually one thing that I think could help would be to enhance all units 15cm range firepower to offset the poor assault capability.
If you wanted to keep the 5.1 structure and special rules, I'm sure that upping both of the Fire Warrior unit's attacks to AP4+ would do just fine as a balancing mechanism for them, and the list would probably be balanced fine.

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