I understand that E&C proposes the Stingray for the Armoured list because thyy lack FireWarriors and thus strong AP capability.

And as i stated in another thread:
E&Cs proposal fits the Mont’ka (Killing Blow) style while 5.1 fits the Kauyon (Patient Hunter) style.

I too think the Stingray has to move to the Armoured list. Not sure about the Scorpionfish. If it had Hover Mode (= eg turning an Aircraft into a Skimmer after landing) would fit both styles. If Mont’ka the Scorpionfish strafes enemy troops as a aircraft/bomber as Kauyon it sits behind cover on Overwatch tu support with Guided Missiles.

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Honda: I see any tuning of weapons in the Air caste as a later (probably second step) phase after some testing. I agree that commonly named weapons should have the same values to prevent confusion.

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Here is my finalised proposal for the future (and final) direction for the Tau army list.

I am of the opinion that this list style could be balanced and finished within a few months, as long as there is a respectable groundswell of testing from playtesters.

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Also included is a theoretical 'Armoured' variant army list, which uses units I have proposed the removal of from the core army list.

The Scorpionfish and the Moray find a home here, as whatever Tau Sept this list represents have obviously been working on 'Titan' and 'Super-Heavy Tank' equivilents for their armies, in the style of the Imperium or the Eldar.

This list would require a longer period of testing to balance properly, as it has an entirely new structure.

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On the last page of the document can be found some stats for a proposed ground-attack Orca variant which I have named the 'Narwhal'.

I am not sure that it has a justified place in either army list, but if an 'armed Orca' is required then I believe this would be a good starting point for stats for a Gunship style Orca.


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Honda: If you do find merit in my proposal, I ask that you look over both army lists and specifically veto any elements of my proposal that you still disagree with.

I can then put together a 'beta' version as the 'proposal' goes to the 'beta testing' stage, to look for balance and stylistic problems.

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As long as the scorpionfish loses the AP missiles it's not completely critical that it is removed, as long as it recieves the same to-hit downgrades as the other GMs.

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I do regard it as critical, as unlike every other GM unit in the army list it has no incentive to do anything except sit stationary, either on Overwatch or making Sustained Fire actions.

Every other GM-carrying unit must move to be most effective, as is appropriate to the standard Tau way of war.

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In reading your return comments, I feel like we can continue to develop the list, working towards the middle ground. I will wait upon your updated copy. I apologize if some of my questions could have been answered by reading the doc, but I was waiting for a slow down in updates before I read through it in depth.

I think where we have a snag is your perspective on static lines vs. your desire to see a more fluid play style. I think that BL has hit the nail on the head in that your approach is geared towards Mont'ka.

Where ever we end up, "the" list will need to support both styles of play (Mont'ka & Kauyon).

Given that you're not inclined to keep the Stingray and I can see reasons for letting it go,  that doesn't seem contentious.

The big knot that needs to be untied from my perspective, is how to handle the Scorpionfish. I'm open to hearing other's perspectives on the unit as well as how we might get to a workable solution.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Honda, I have updated the list to a version fit for your evaluation, as noted in this post earlier on this page.



My post may answer for you what I think should be done with the 'armed Orca' concept, though it may not be to everyone's taste.

Where ever we end up, "the" list will need to support both styles of play (Mont'ka & Kauyon)

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I have been having a look at your "armoured" list E&C.

What would you make of this as a Tau list..

Scorpionfish Cadre (3 Scorpionfish)
+SC

Scorpionfish
Scorpionfish
Recon Group (3 Tetra/3 Piranha)

Stingray Cadre

Recon Group (3 Tetra/3 Piranha)
Recon Group (1 Tetra/5 Piranha)
Recon Group (1 Tetra/5 Piranha)

Moray
AX-1-0 Squadron

What would you make of this as a Tau list.

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The list was intended as what you called the GM gunline with ML pickets.  You were quite oppossed to that style of play for a core Tau list.  But I gather it would be ok in a varient list then?

Yes it would be fine for any Sept that specialises in that style of warfare, as although it may not be the standard way that the Tau make war (and shouldn't appear as a vital feature of the core list), I can see that a Tau Sept that is desperately short on Fire Warriors might well invent Anti-Personnel missiles and rely on them to fill the gap in their tactical doctrine left by the absence of Fire Warriors.

So a static gunline is a no-no for the standard style of Tau warfare (the 'core' list), but fine for a variant army list which represents a particular Sept. That was why I made two of the three Cadre choices in the Armoured list GM formations, to compensate for the list's comparative lack of Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits.

I imagine you could have other Tau styles too, such as infantry-based (O'Shova?) or light vehicle based, or Orca-based***, etc, with each army list posessing one or two new units designed to facilitate that particular style of warfare.


The Stingray and Scorpionfish, clearly, facilitate a gunline style.


***Perhaps this would be a good place to have that Orca gunship unit!

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Ok, I understand your point more clearly now.  You don't like the "core" Tau list with AP GMs as you believe that leads to a gunline stlye of play.

(I would argue the the scorpionfish also facilitates a movement style army, but I am sure that is where we have different views and they are well documented.)

If I could throw another idea at you...

What if you were to create the varient list?  Make yours the (O'Shova?) Fire Warrior based list.  You can then easily justify removal of heavier units and compensate with other ideas (Bonded Teams, Heavy Drones, New Aircraft etc).  Give some bonuses or points break to the Fire Warriors or give them a more flexible size or upgrade range, whatever it takes to make up for the missing units.

That way development can go ahead in parallel, and if in time the varient becomes more popular...?

You don't like the "core" Tau list with AP GMs as you believe that leads to a gunline stlye of play.

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I am pretty sure I wasn't advocating any kind of rebellion  

I only mentioned the idea as you brought up the concept of varient lists.  Since varient lists are often created/edited/done by someone other than the main AC.

Certainly, but my concept is so similar to the core list that it has no reason to exist as anything other than a proposal as to what to do with the core list to finish it.

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