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Tigersharks

 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:51 pm 
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can we just bring back a drone formation of 6 stands for 150-175pts


I will roll this suggestion into my proposal thread.

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 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:18 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 28 Jul. 2009, 12:14 )

Seeing as the rule still exists can we just bring back a drone formation of 6 stands for 150-175pts.... and nag the AC to finally use some common sense with regard to "expendable"! I wouldn't have any objection to BL suggestion if drone formations are a problem.

TRC, I can't find discusion on the TS and drones either?

Closest I an find is a thread on tau air stuff, which seems to be from around january
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 23;t=14521

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 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:19 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 28 Jul. 2009, 13:51 )

can we just bring back a drone formation of 6 stands for 150-175pts


I will roll this suggestion into my proposal thread.

Populist :)

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 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:48 pm 
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Is the rule's inclusion in the list a mistake, or merely a relic that cannot be used because Gun Drone formations don't actually exist anymore?


It is a mistake. It should no longer be in the list.

I also find it rather amusing (or not) that all of a sudden, no one seems to recall what was decided. For each change that was made, I specifically listed out what the capabilities of the units in question were going to be. There were comments and then they were relisted again. Also with time for comments and concerns prior to placing the new capabilities into the list...with a still open period before freezing the "code" prior to the cut off.

Decisions were made with the people who were present at the time and who provided contributions.

I'm sorry if any individuals were not available at the time that the decisions were made and were unable to comment. However, we are not going back and re-writing the list because a new opinion has surfaced.

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 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:45 pm 
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Can you point us to that stuff Honda? I currently fail to see any rational for it, you are saying it is all laid out somewhere? Was i a balance problem separate from the low cost of drones?




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 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:46 pm 
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Me too. I only remember that the Drone formation was dropped.

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 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:02 pm 
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Can you point us to that stuff Honda?


If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll find the posts. Realistically, it won't happen before the weekend.

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 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:40 pm 
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This wasn't that hard to find:

This thread: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....;st=135

You can read the full thread. Final versions were posted around Page 10

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 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:07 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ 28 Jul. 2009, 18:48 )

Is the rule's inclusion in the list a mistake, or merely a relic that cannot be used because Gun Drone formations don't actually exist anymore?


It is a mistake. It should no longer be in the list.

It doesn't have to be a "mistake" or a "relic."  I'd say leave it in the TS capabilities.  The army list doesn't have to use every ability of every unit.  TS drone transport capacity can be exactly correct and its lack of inclusion because the force this particular army list represents does not typically use the ability.

Units with unused capabilities in an army list have precedent.  The Land Raider has transport capacity for Tactical Marines even though it's impossible to mount Tacticals in LRs in the Codex list.  That doesn't mean no Tactical Marine ever rode around in a Land Raider.  It just means that it is an atypical deployment scheme for most SM chapters to put Tacs in LRs.  Subsequent variant lists have used the ability quite a bit.


And for the record, I applaud you sticking to your gunz on the development plan.

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 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:05 am 
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Quote: (Honda @ 26 Jul. 2009, 19:51 )

Early versions of the TS had the ability, but there were inconsistencies with the core rules and how the TS operated.

When it came time to redesign the TS-basic kit, as a community, it was decided to drop the ability and focus on the air support role. In earlier versions, there were people who used drones + TS, but in the past years, no one has, nor thought that it was important.

Hence it was dropped to reduce the number of special rules.

I have labored several years under 4.x.x rules. I managed to make a reasonable win loss record living with drones and "drone swarms"( I believe the current fashionable name).
I do not understand why 'expendable' drones is such anathema.
If you characterize the Tau as a race that uses technology to gain an edge on the more numerous but sadly primitive races. Drones should be right up there as a difference maker. A smart race would love to be able to manufacture soldiers, off the line into battle. Mechanical soldiers (drones), while not cheap like grots, would of necessity  be a wise choice.
Heavy drones w/ ML, complete units of drones and ablative additional  drones for units makes a real racial difference that no other race can duplicate. It can form the basis for doctrine of operation.
Briefly, mechanical troopers form the front line trip wire units that delay harass and otherwise slow or channelize the enemy. High command determines the point of concentration and commits the precious living troopers to decisive action against the foe. Following up with maneuver warfare dash to the soft chewy center of the bad guys tootsie pop or a quick regroup to strike elsewhere while additional units of mechanical troopers are sown to cause havoc among the broken enemy.
How does this rant relate to the TS?  Here is the second bit of doctrine: close association and cooperation of all units in the Tau military ground , air and space. TS is a strike unit and a drone carrier with the ability and survivability to deploy drones to  the rear of enemies. Air strike followed by almost instantaneous air drop, scary huh?
It has been pointed out to me that I expect "too much reality" perhaps so. In the absence of a defined tau doctrine give it a thought.
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 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:14 am 
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I agree with your sentiments Bear.

Personally have always felt that Drones ought to be one of the main differentiators of the Tau and that Drones should be physically represented in the list, so that tactics like this can be used. But the general concensus (or perhaps the loudest voices) insisted there were too many 'special rules' and that the various types of Drone were best represented purely through the unit stats. The logical extension to this is to remove all references to Drones, including from TS etc.

But this debate is really missing the point that Honda is making:- we really need to keep to one set of stats for a little while to prove or disprove the content, at least as far as the other elements of the list go. Can we test the list as it stands and then come back to Drones and finding ways of including them?

To this end, Neal's approach would be sensible - ignore Drones for now but leave the transport stat there for the future, because you can be sure there will be further iterations to the list where Drones can (and IMHO should) be introduced.

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 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:27 am 
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I also think we need to keep the overall development plan in mind. This first cut is not the last. The purpose of this cut was to get us to a point where the rules were streamlined, the list was not overpowering/gamey/beardy or whatever other word your opponents tossed your way and then start the refinements.

That plan has been laid out from the beginning. I said the streamlining might not be popular. It's not. It's also not the end of the world.

This is the beginning of the journey.

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 Post subject: Tigersharks
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:40 pm 
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Yes, down in the history of the tau lists developments as the fastest single sourced suggestion to be followed (somewhat annoying when so many people had a very good handle on what needed to be balanced after the first CC but got flat ignored).

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