Here is the place for any replies to any feedback on the BL Chaos changes thread.

Yes, they should be range 15cm for the exact reasons you describe - with range 30cm they'll avoid aircraft defensive fire with ease. Note that they're also "forward arc" not "fixed forward" which is the tradeoff - they're harder to sneak up on themselves.

We had a lot of discussion about these guys before I made the document. It's actually interesting that you tried them out with range 30cm, that makes me feel better about them being range 15cm - but "half a game" could be more extensively tested.  

I have extensively tested them, and found them to be a bit too good.

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At 2x 15cm AA5+, correct? Would dropping them down to "Armour -" be sufficient in your opinion to bring them in line with their points? In a typical army list, how many do you field (or how many would you field if you had a unlimited model collection!)?

I take a single formation to every game. With armour - that wouldn't change, so it couldn't hurt to downgrade them in that manner, let's put it that way.


More concerning to me are the fighter bombers, which as I said in the other thread are not worth their points.

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I have used these fighter bombers with very similar stats some months ago and they struck me as alright. Admittedly I was playing against an Imperial guard army and the weapons are ideal to kill mechanised troops. With better firepower than thunderbolts (my eternal benchmark), the ability to intercept if needs dictate (with a 30cm AA3+ shot) with a save twice as good as normal fighters. Certainly I would take them at 200 if I could over thunderbolts

So is it instead why not go for the dedicated bomber instead of the FB, or the fighters instead of the FB?

Fighters to FB the F's have 6xAP4+/AP6+ vs FB's 2bp IC (with the FB's having a stand off attack if needed) AP4+, AT4+. Seems pretty similar.

Somethign that wouldn't affect the points is maybe make the FB forward arc for its lascannon - would account for the range drop and give it a small boost?

Combined with no save for the figthers - That enough to separate them out? Or should the ground attack of the fighters be reduced? Go for a twin weapon? Possible stat lines could be
30cm AP3+/AT5+/AA3+ fixed forward
30cm AP3+/AT5+/AA4+ forward arc
15cm AP3+/AT5+/AA3+ forward arc
15cm AP3+/AT5+/AA4+ 360'
Probably re-cost as well to 150 or so with the above.

Maybe try first though no save for F's and 180' for fb's AA?

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Hmm why has the Hell Talon Fighter-bomber Armour 5+? Its armour values in Wh40k isn't better than any other aircraft (with the exeption of the Thunderhawk).
What was the reason for this?

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It is half way between being a fighter and a bomber?

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As Ork Fighta Bommers with their 6+ save?  

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Nah they are Orks in fighters who just want to be bombers
More accurately Fighter bomber refers to ground attack manoverability (with fighters being better than fighter bombers) rather than mission role or tactics. So the Hell wahtsname is actualy tactically a fighter bomber

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I believe BL was talking about the Armour save, not Fighter Bomber classification...

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Ferals - with MW+IC Ferals were comparable with warhounds ...Without MW they lose their effectiveness

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The vast majority of complaints about the oblits were concerning their inclusion with terminators - a fearless RA flak unit on the opponents baseline.

I don't understand how 3x AA5+ at 45cm is overpowered?  1 shot more than a hydra for more points

I always found that it is good at defending its own unit but difficult to maintain wider coverage, especially given its lack of speed. Hydras, hunters and firestorms all provide similar coverage for similar points with no negatives to their formation.

How is it more difficult to suppress than a hydra in a tank or mech co? More difficult to kill Yes but not suppress. If you make it difficult to kill by daemon shielding it in cover then you end up throwing 900ish points as a purely defensive measure (2 retinues to get decent coverage) which will ensure you lose the game elsewhere. Orks+IG can again hide their flak like this for less cost.

Regarding the fearless issues - which was the problem that was largely raised, I don't see that is more of an issue than any other army that can get a fearless RA unit - IG, Eldar.
The only difference is they can teleport.
However others seemed to have a problem with this which is why I favoured a 0-1 limit as an upgrade

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Feral - by your points that adds up - though I think the AP/AT balance is flawed. By 200+ games with BL then the MW Feral was comparable to a warhound and fine at 300 for what it can do if allowed to do exactly what you want it to do, the non-MW is worth, if anything, less than a warhound

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For 25pts extra you get:


- Armour to 4+ reinforced instead of 6+.
- Gains Thick Rear Armour
- Gains Teleport
- Gains An extra AA shot
- Gains Fearless
- Firefight goes from 5+ to 2+
- Close Combat goes from 6+ to 3+
- Gains Invulnerable save
- Strategy Rating goes from 2 to 4
- Gains infantry status, meaning most fire at it will generally be at -1 to-hit.


All that, for only 25pts, is simply not priced correctly, thus, loads of complaints.

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