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Varient Lists
zombocom
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma]Ok as someone has actually asked to use it I will update it.

Actually, since [b -->
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 16 Jul. 2009 @ 14:33 )

Ok as someone has actually asked to use it I will update it.

Actually, since [b)

Jervis[/b] himself has asked us not to run "mutliple variants" of lists for the Tyranids, I'd prefer if you didn't release a full army document.

Posting your individual Special Rules concepts for discussion is fine, but having "competing" lists running at the same time just diffusing playtesting and splinters the player base.


Quote: (frogbear]

Actually, since [b -->
Quote: (Chroma @ 16 Jul. 2009 @ 14:59 )

Actually, since [b)

Jervis[/b] himself has asked us not to run "mutliple variants" of lists for the Tyranids, I'd prefer if you didn't release a full army document.

Frankly I do not give two hoots about what Jervis wants.

If there is another list with good rules to play and test, then that is what I want.

When was the last time Jervis picked up the dice for an Epic game anyways?

It just come across as you protecting your own list and does not look good Chroma. The more the merrier.

:no:


Quote: (Chroma @ 16 Jul. 2009 @ 14:59 )


Why the hostility,frogbear?

I've posted many variants, submitted by other people, here, including getting a translation of the French list for people to try out, so I don't think I'm "protecting my own list"; I'm trying to keep things "focused", as having multiple lists out there for people to play just spreads confusion for the most part.  Maintaining "focus" is part of an Army Champion's job when developing a list.  And so is listening to other people's ideas.  I think I'm capable of doing both.   :agree:

Have you played any games with any of the various lists here, Frogbear?  I don't recall seeing any playtests or battle reports from you, so where are you getting your concept of which rules are "good" or not?

Jervis actually told E&C directly to his face about not diffusing/splintering playtesting, and I, and I believe E&C, respect that.



Chroma: It does look a little protectionist of you to try and shut down a list. How is that in the epic open-development spirit?

Focusing on one list is all well and good, but as several people have mentioned (and I very much agree) 9.2.1 really doesn't fit our view of the tyranids, and never will. Personally I only have interest in a list representing the current 40k incarnation of nids, which this list attempts to do, so is of much more interest to me.

You have posted various varient lists, such as your French-based varient, which also had wildly different special rules. Why is it ok for you to post your varient lists but not for E&C to post his?




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:43 pm 
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You have variant spelling.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:47 pm 
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Taken From the Leviathan Thread, with additions:

Quote: (zombocom @ 16 Jul. 2009, 16:28 )

Chroma: It does look a little protectionist of you to try and shut down a list. How is that in the epic open-development spirit?

Wow, I didn't know saying "I prefer you didn't" was so draconian and severe, should I have ended it with "please"?   :))

The idea of *not* having mutliple "core" variants of a list running at the same time came directly to me from E&C and his discussions with Jervis, so I was reaffirming that with Ben, and I think he agrees.  I made a request, but you don't see me deleting threads or anything and I'd like this thread to stay open.  

Focusing on one list is all well and good, but as several people have mentioned (and I very much agree) 9.2.1 really doesn't fit our view of the tyranids, and never will. Personally I only have interest in a list representing the current 40k incarnation of nids, which this list attempts to do, so is of much more interest to me.

So, you want a list with less units in it?  Is that the "representing the current 40k incarnation of nids" you're talking about?  Or Nidzilla?  Or "Gaunts-n-Warriors" swarms?  Could you please elaborate?

Why is it ok for you to post your varient lists but not for E&C to post his?
I believe E&C *HAS* posted his variant list, so I'm not sure what's "not okay" about doing it.  

And, sorry, I'm the Army Champion (along with the invisible Jaldon), so I have to take a hand in directing and focusing things or even *less* would get done.

E&C's list isn't a 'variant' list, it's an alternate "core" list with different unit stats and special rules, that's something that can *definitely* cause confusion so I've got to take that under consideration.

And to the "French list", that's not "my" variant, it was a translation I requested to show people what the French were doing.  Isn't it the Army Champion's job to explore and examine other avenues of development and pick and choose the best from them to make a better list?

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Morgan Vening
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:52 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 16 Jul. 2009, 16:43 )

You have variant spelling.

And very variant formatting.

My eyes! Ze goggles, zay do nuthink!
:oo:

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zombocom
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:02 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 16 Jul. 2009, 16:47 )

Quote: (zombocom @ 16 Jul. 2009, 16:28 )

Chroma: It does look a little protectionist of you to try and shut down a list. How is that in the epic open-development spirit?

Wow, I didn't know saying "I prefer you didn't" was so draconian and severe, should I have ended it with "please"?   :))

You were happy to ignore this list entirely until suddenly people popped up saying they were interested in it. Immediately you appear and ask for E&C not to release his army document any more. That does not reflect well on you; it comes across as you jealously protecting your work by shutting down competitors.


The idea of *not* having mutliple "core" variants of a list running at the same time came directly to me from E&C and his discussions with Jervis, so I was reaffirming that with Ben, and I think he agrees.  I made a request, but you don't see me deleting threads or anything and I'd like this thread to stay open.  


I didn't say anything about you deleting anything, or acting draconian, I said you were being protectionist.


So, you want a list with less units in it?  Is that the "representing the current 40k incarnation of nids" you're talking about?  Or Nidzilla?  Or "Gaunts-n-Warriors" swarms?  Could you please elaborate?


Yes, my ideal of the nids doesn't have malefactors, haruspexes and whatever the other bio-tanks are, and incorporates the more modern elements such as carnifex varients, tyrant guard and the malanthrope. The 9.2.1 list will never support this, so rather than pointlessly yelling at you to do so, I'm happier with a variant list that does support the current 40k style nids.


I believe E&C *HAS* posted his variant list, so I'm not sure what's "not okay" about doing it.  


Yes, he posted it and then you asked him not to.


And, sorry, I'm the Army Champion (along with the invisible Jaldon), so I have to take a hand in directing and focusing things or even *less* would get done.


I don't believe asking people to not post variant lists is under the remit of the army champion. Your role is to guide the development of the nid lists, not to shut them down. I can't think of another situation where any army champion has asked for a list to not be posted.


E&C's list isn't a 'variant' list, it's an alternate "core" list with different unit stats and special rules, that's something that can *definitely* cause confusion so I've got to take that under consideration.


That's a matter of semantics, but even if I agree with you, it merely reinforces the view of your being protectionist of your own work.


And to the "French list", that's not "my" variant, it was a translation I requested to show people what the French were doing.  Isn't it the Army Champion's job to explore and examine other avenues of development and pick and choose the best from them to make a better list?


I was referring to this: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 21;t=14739, the wildly different variant list you posted based on ideas from the French list, not the direct translation.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:24 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 16 Jul. 2009, 17:02 )

You were happy to ignore this list entirely until suddenly people popped up saying they were interested in it. Immediately you appear and ask for E&C not to release his army document any more. That does not reflect well on you; it comes across as you jealously protecting your work by shutting down competitors.

HAHA!

I'm sorry Zombo, I just can't take you seriously any more in regard to this, you seem to have some kind of negative attitude/anger issue, not sure if just with me, or broader, that's tinting everything in shades of red, but reading this "it comes across as you jealously protecting your work by shutting down competitors" into my actions is just so ridiculous to me, that I'm actually sitting here laughing.  I made a *request*... not a demand.  I'm a friendly and easy-going guy, people can go ahead and post whatever they want on here, it's a free forum, unless Cybershadow starts charging us. *laugh*  But I *will* moderate and direct the forum as Army Champion and moderator, and I will work to avoid confusing people

I didn't ignore E&C's list, I've spoken to him about it often on IM, and that "Immediately [...I] appear" in the thread is because it hadn't been posted to since May and new posts just started today, July 16th, so it came to the top of the forum.  I've actually been helping him with finding typos and making corrections... wow, I must *really* not want this thing posted.

And, just for clarity, I think the word you are looking for is "protective", not "protectionist", as I don't think this has anyting to do with trade and tariffs.

Yes, my ideal of the nids doesn't have malefactors, haruspexes and whatever the other bio-tanks are, and incorporates the more modern elements such as carnifex varients and the malanthrope. The 9.2.1 list will never support this, so rather than pointlessly yelling at you to do so, I'm happier with a variant list that does support the current 40k style nids.


So, you'd like it if the list didn't cater to people who have collected older models?  You *can* play the v9.2.1 list without the "bio-tanks" and still be quite competative.  I suppose you're just as dissatisfied with E&C's Titan lists that allow weapons/units that don't "exist" anymore?

I'd gladly add in Carnifex variants, it's one of the things on my Tyranid drawing board, and the Malathrope is included in the Phase V list, as it's, usually, a later Phase development.

I can't think of another situation where any army champion has asked for a list to not be posted.
I don't think there's ever been a situation where anyone has posted a completely different army list with alternate special rules and new units stats, so there's not really any precedent.

I'm sure someone posting a "completely new" version of the Orks with new special rules would at least raise an eyebrow or two in the Orks forum.




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zombocom
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:40 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 16 Jul. 2009, 17:24 )

HAHA!

I'm sorry Zombo, I just can't take you seriously any more in regard to this, you seem to have some kind of negative attitude/anger issue, not sure if just with me, or broader, that's tinting everything in shades of red, but reading this "it comes across as you jealously protecting your work by shutting down competitors" into my actions is just so ridiculous to me, that I'm actually sitting here laughing.  I made a *request*... not a demand.

Refusing to take a debate seriously and dismissing me with a laugh is childish, Chroma.

It really does come across as you being jealous, and reflects badly on you. Please note that frogbear had exactly the same reaction before I posted:

"It just come across as you protecting your own list and does not look good Chroma. The more the merrier."

Once again, I do not think it is within the rights of an army champion to ask people not to post their lists. That is entirely unacceptable behaviour.


I didn't ignore E&C's list, I've spoken to him about it often on IM, and that "Immediately [...I] appear" in the thread is because it hadn't been posted to since May and new posts just started today, July 16th, so it came to the top of the forum.  I've actually been helping him with finding typos and making corrections... wow, I must *really* not want this thing posted.


It does seem bizarre behaviour to help out with a list behind the scenes then publicly ask for it not to be posted, yes.


And, just for clarity, I think the word you are looking for is "protective", not "protectionist", as I don't think this has anyting to do with trade and tariffs.


No, I meant protectionist. I was using anti-free-trade language as a metaphor for your actions.



So, you'd like it if the list didn't cater to people who have collected older models?  You *can* play the v9.2.1 list without the "bio-tanks" and still be quite competative.  I suppose you're just as dissatisfied with E&C's Titan lists that allow weapons/units that don't "exist" anymore?


I'm perfectly happy for the main nid list to support whatever models it likes, I think you're perfectly correct in catering for those with older models. However, those of us who prefer a more modern nid interpretation shouldn't be shut down for wanting to go down a different path.



I don't think there's ever been a situation where anyone has posted a completely different army list with alternate special rules and new units stats, so there's not really any precedent.

I'm sure someone posting a "completely new" version of the Orks with new special rules would at least raise an eyebrow or two in the Orks forum.


Raising an eyebrow is entirely different to asking for it to not be posted.

Examples of such lists do exist, including the French nid translation, and your own varient list based on it.

I suggested at one point that I was going to write a new Tau list from scratch, with different stats and special rules. I was encouraged to do so, not asked not to.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:48 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 16 Jul. 2009, 17:40 )

Refusing to take a debate seriously and dismissing me with a laugh is childish, Chroma.

But there is no debate, I've already stated "I made a *request*... not a demand.", yet you seem to believe I was uttering an edict from on high, but I wasn't.  We aren't debating list merits here, we're "debating" the interpretation of a request I made.

I asked E&C not to post an update, since a v9.2.x update is in the works and I wanted to avoid confusion, he posted it anyway, and I'm fine with that and I'm helping him.  I'm *really* trying to see the "protectionism" and "jealosy" in that.

I've also said, "people can go ahead and post whatever they want on here, it's a free forum", and I stand by that too.

So, what are we debating?

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zombocom
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:51 pm 
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I ask myself, would you have intervened had this list been hastily scribbled in a word document rather than a professional looking pdf with pictures of high quality models E&C has had produced for this list?

Are you just worried that the pdf looks better than the offical one?




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:52 pm 
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I asked E&C not to post an update, since a v9.2.x update is in the works and I wanted to avoid confusion, he posted it anyway, and I'm fine with that and I'm helping him.  


To be fair I said I wanted to lock the thread after the (very minor) update, and then after I'd updated it Chroma asked me not to lock it.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:52 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 16 Jul. 2009, 17:52 )

I asked E&C not to post an update, since a v9.2.x update is in the works and I wanted to avoid confusion, he posted it anyway, and I'm fine with that and I'm helping him.  


To be fair I said I wanted to lock the thread after the (very minor) update, and then after I'd updated it you asked me not to lock it.

And I *don't* want it locked, that's not fair to you or anyone else who's interested in the list.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:00 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 16 Jul. 2009, 17:52 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 16 Jul. 2009, 17:52 )

I asked E&C not to post an update, since a v9.2.x update is in the works and I wanted to avoid confusion, he posted it anyway, and I'm fine with that and I'm helping him.  


To be fair I said I wanted to lock the thread after the (very minor) update, and then after I'd updated it you asked me not to lock it.

And I *don't* want it locked, that's not fair to you or anyone else who's interested in the list.

But asking for it not to be updated is fair to those who are interested in the list?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:04 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 16 Jul. 2009, 17:51 )

I ask myself, would you have intervened had this list been hastily scribbled in a word document rather than a professional looking pdf with pictures of models E&C has had produced for this list?

Are you just worried that the pdf looks better than the offical one?

OMIGOD!  You are killing me here, Zombo!  You're really digging deep for my motivations!

Why the heck would I care what a playtest document looked like?  These are rough drafts, not final copies, they're for printing out and scribbling on and throwing away.  I purposely don't put any "graphic design" into playtest docs so they're easy to download and don't use up much ink/toner when printed!

E&C's booklet looks great, and Stug's cover is awesome, but I'm currently concerned more about honing the rules and units and army before being concerned with what it "looks like".

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zombocom
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:12 pm 
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I was just trying to look for a reasonable explanation, as your answers so far have left me baffled.

You said this list could "confuse" people, and I presumed that was because of the professional layout of the pdf. How else is it any more confusing than any of the varient lists?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Varient Lists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:18 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 16 Jul. 2009, 18:00 )

But asking for it not to be updated is fair to those who are interested in the list?

Here's what I wrote:

Actually, since Jervis himself has asked us not to run "mutliple variants" of lists for the Tyranids, I'd prefer if you didn't release a full army document.

Posting your individual Special Rules concepts for discussion is fine, but having "competing" lists running at the same time just diffusing playtesting and splinters the player base.

I didn't even *ask* for the list not to be updated, I stated my own preference, that is all.  Since a new v9 list should be coming out soon, I wanted to avoid any, "Ah, here's the new list!" confusion.

Could you please explain to me how that is unreasonable?

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