im still in favor of the "special rule" option. as alot of you seem to think yes it would fix the problem yet opposed so strongly against it at the same time. im all honesty what is one more rule to the eldar now or the game if you opt for the core unit allocation of the rule.  just my 2 cents worth.
failing that. i plan on play testing  the idea of 4+ MW  FS  infiltrate.  and see hwo that goes this wekend.
I like the idea of infiltrate as it gives them the longer strike range that isnt represented by other CC aspects and gives into the agile nature and speed of the banshees, and also allows for the fliping and dancing over grtos and so forth to enage the priority targets that they a put on the feild to kill.

will let you know how it plays out.

I played with the Banshees the last three times I played with Eldar (twice with Biel-tan, once with Ulthwe').  In all three cases I think they performed as expected.  

The first time I saw them played them at CC2+ was at Games Day (I believe I brought this up on a different thread so I won't regurgitate it).

I then played them myself in two other games as full Banshee formations, both of which the Banshees performed very well.

This last time was as part of a mixed aspect formation against a prepped Leman Russ formation. The result was the utter and complete destruction of the target and much of that was because of the First Strikes at 2+.  

The argument has been made that Scorpions are still a better buy, but I'm just not seeing it.  8 Banshees are going to hit 6-8 units on a first strike.  Using a 4+ armor as an example, that is 3-4 units that will not be shooting back at you in any capacity.  Compare that against 8 Scorpions hitting 7-9 units but those 3-4 units can shoot back.  The armor is 5+ which is not terrible vs 4+ which is good.  I suppose it all comes down to what kind of shots you anticipate coming back at you.  In other words, they have a nice function in the Eldar army.

Not to pull this off topic but the real problem with Aspects are the Warp Spiders (STILL), not the Banshees.

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An interesting commment, are the niches based on 40K roles or more on the E:A gameplay?


As an aide-memoire, could we list the niches for the various Aspects together with the expected to-hit ranges. So for example, we might say that
- Striking Scorpions are anti-horde specialists, 2xCC4+ with leaders giving ~9.0 hits under best circumstances
- Swooping Hawks are long-ranged scouts that strike on the flanks of the army, 10xFF4+ giving ~5.0 hits under best circumstances
Etc

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A 'Speed 20cm' would help the Banshees to reach the ennemy more easilly, without empower them to much.
I remember in Wh40k v2, Banshees ran faster than the other Aspect (because of the light armour).

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Ok, so I think I will play a "test" army to try out the various combinations. Hopefully E&C, Zombo or Moronguhl will oblige next Tuesday. I propose to use the following list:-

550 Banshees + Exs + Wave Serpents
400 Banshees + Ex + Sc
350 Banshees + Exs
350 Guardians + Wave Serpents
300 Night Wings
250 Storm Serpent
250 Void Spinner
200 Vampire
200 Bikes
100 Rangers
50 Gate

Though this is not really a 'competitive' list it should allow a degree of testing. The idea is to deploy the Banshees using Vampires, Wave Serpents and gate; considering the following mobility options:-
15cm infiltrate
20cm infiltrate
30cm (to represent their agility)

and when / if they get into combat, to compare the following combat options
CC2+ FS
CC5+ FS and CC5+ FS MW
CC4+ FS MW

And the following Armour options
5+
5+ Inv
4+

Though it looks complicated, basically we will throw the dice once and consider what would have happened for the various options.

What do you think guys?

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I would say have a mind to putting Banshees in mixed formations. For example, if you have 50% banshees and 50% warp spiders, then you might get more of an idea of the relative merits of each unit.

Definitely got to agree with Lord_I; it's fairly uncommon to field a "pure close combat" Aspect Warhost, it's usually a mix of CC/FF specialists.  

I think solid Banshee Warhosts are extremely unlikely.

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I don't know, I like pure Aspect Hosts myself.

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Warp spiders are the obvious and a natural partner here. Obviously any retaliation during the assault will fall on the Banshees, and this actually forms part of the issue with the unit. Equally Warp Spiders cannot be put into the Wave Serpents which I believe can be used to reduce the impact to the Banshee formation as a whole. (As an aside, I am curious why the Warp Spiders have 4+ armour while the Banshees only got 5+)

I will certainly try the combo in Vampire and from a gate - though adding Warp Spiders to Banshees automatically implies adding mobility to the Banshees (infiltrate as a minimum, possibly on 20cm movement), otherwise the Banshees will be outstripped by the Spiders.

This comparison also suggests that perhaps the mobility stats for the two formations could be reversed - so the Spiders could get 20cm movement (to reflect the warp jump), while the Banshees could get 15cm with infiltrate to allow targetted close quarter attacks. This would have the additional benefit of toning down Spiders while boosting the Banshees.

Is that reasonable?

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I would have thought a FF aspect like Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers would suit the best to complement their CC power but I'm not an Eldar player.

Banshees, like Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers, have armour equivalent to carapace armour, while Warp Spiders and Dark Reapers have armour more akin to power armour. Warp Spiders always had more armour than Banshees.

Warp Spiders have always had much heavier armour than other aspects (In 40K it's 3+ the same as Scorpions and Dark Reapers).

I'm a fan of purist aspect hosts, depending on role.  For e.g. I don't think i'd take an all CC aspect host and tend to combine them with the less mobile shooty aspects such as DAs and fire dragons.  However specialist aspects with special movement modes or ranged attacks like Swooping hawks, dark reapers and warp spiders i like to keep mono.

Whilst on the face of it warp spiders seem like natural partners to Banshees because of the FS ability i personally don't like the combination.  It restricts the after engagement options and restricts them to being delivered into combat via Vampire or webway.  Getting use out of the aspects for more than the turn that they are deliverd to the battlefield and engage is always important in my mind when selecting a list.

I would personally consider either scorpions (To take the hits back), Fire dragons, DAs or shining spears to partner Banshees up with.

My personal preferences would be along the lines of:

Banshees/fire dragons with wave serpents
Banshees/DAs with wave serpents
Or Banshees with wave serpents and shining spears.

If Banshees were to get 4+ MW FS it'd be a toss up between shining spears (To keep costs down) or Fire dragons - to specialise in killing armour.

How about you test the 3 different aspect warhosts you have in your list using ideal stats and combinations for each.  

E.g. Banshees/Shining spears + SC with wave serpents Some kind of MW attack for Banshees. etc, etc.

I'll go pure Swoops or Warp Spiders, but I've never gone pure Close Combat-focus; I'll always put some shooting/FF units in the mix.

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Intruiging combinations. The essential element in the Banshees / Warp Spiders is the First Strike attack. The whole point being to eliminate as many of the enemy to reduce the potential retaliation. Adding Warp Spiders improves the clipping capability of the formation, while adding any other Aspect ends up diluting the First strike capabilities meaning that retaliation hits will fall on the Banshees unless you can put stronger armoured units in B-B with the enemy.

The 'natural' choice for this would be Striking Scorpions, but the cany opponent would take any first strike hits on those units in B-B with the scorpions thus reducing the effect of the eldar assault as a whole. Consequently using Wave serpents in this role is much better. So the idea of using Wave Serpents in B-B together with ranged Aspects could work. Fire Dragons are probably the best though Dark Reapers could also work (the others have no ranged fire and the shining Spears want to be in B-B to maximse their assault potential).

However, even with these Aspects the Banshees still need greater mobility than 15cm if they are to get into B-B ahead of the other Aspects.

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How about just writing in the Notes: The Banshees Close-combat attack counts as Macro-weapon against Infantry.

And modify nothing else?
So the Banshees would have a sinlge CC3+ First-strike, Macro-weapon attack against Infantry and CC3+ First-strike WITHOUT Macro-weapon against anything else.

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