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Few questions

 Post subject: Few questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:14 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 14 Jul. 2009, 09:06 )

Have you actually played the nid list with these forces?

If so, were you not effected by the excessive blast markers and the like that these things attract?

With a 3+ initiative, acting with these things first when you need them are not always viable

Yes. And they perform a lot better than my guard equivalents who have less stats and a lower strategy 2+ for some reason :) And of course rarely don't have a blast marker.

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 Post subject: Few questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:17 am 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 14 Jul. 2009, 11:14 )

Quote: (frogbear @ 14 Jul. 2009, 09:06 )

Have you actually played the nid list with these forces?

If so, were you not effected by the excessive blast markers and the like that these things attract?

With a 3+ initiative, acting with these things first when you need them are not always viable

Yes. And they perform a lot better than my guard equivalents who have less stats and a lower strategy 2+ for some reason :) And of course rarely don't have a blast marker.

Fair enough

Back to the 'drawing board' then.

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 Post subject: Few questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:11 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 14 Jul. 2009, 11:12 )

Quote: (Hena @ 14 Jul. 2009, 11:05 )

My main opposition to this is that one of the main points of the rule is to reduce rolling in end phase. I think that rolling twice for most of your formation is not a good thing. We used to do it and it's not a good thing. With +2 you only need to roll twice for broken swarms of which there is less. Also if you break a formation by shooting, you practically have killed all synapse and then you don't need to roll them at all (ok, you can break them without killing all synapse but it doesn't really happen). So only situation where this twice rolling comes up is when Tyranids are broken in assaults.

Hena

There is no extra rolling.

All that is being put forward that instead of gaining the +2 to the dice when removing blast markers, you do it on the normal initiative (no +2 modifier). The +2 modifier is only for broken formations.

Are we on the 'same page'?

Hena's referring to the fact that if you don't get the +2 when not broken, you now have to roll for all your formations w/ blast markers instead of having a 0+ or 1+ test and simply removing 1/2 their markers.  With +2 to all of your formations in the end phase, unless they're broken, you can simply start picking markers up and move along to spawning.


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 Post subject: Few questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:20 pm 
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Oh, ok.

So apart from the fact that there is another roll involved, does it assist to help balance the list to people's main concern when facing the list?

If one extra roll of the dice would get this one step closer to a status of TESTED, then I am all for that.

Feasible or is it back to the 'drawing board' for me?

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 Post subject: Few questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:22 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 14 Jul. 2009, 12:22 )

So comparison here is Genestealers vs Rough Riders, I assume.

Both are 150 for 6. Same speed, same save, same CC.
Genestealers pro: First Strike on both attacks, no Mounted
Rough Rider pro: FF ability

Now you could say that RR is getting short end of the stick here directly. But the difference is that IG has all the gear for shooting and not a lot for CC. Rough Riders fill that niche along with Stormtroopers. Tyranids on the other hand have all their stuff in CC capable forces. So Genestealer doesn't make that much difference there. There is of course Commissars, which Genestealers can balance once by taking Broodlord. However Broodlords are restricted to once per army unlike Commissars. Then again you can counter with +2 to engage and rally for Genestealers.

That's one of the reasons that Dactylis, Harridan and Hierophant are liked. They give at least some firepower to Tyranids.

Oh they are one per army? I thought from the list it was one per formation.

The comparison is sorta to rr. Its more vicious scouts vs vicious scouts. The Stealers of course getting the nid initiative and strategy rating as well.

But really also for me its independent stuff vs core - the independent gear looks an awful lot better. To the extent I would never really wish to get less than the maximum allowed. So really the list may as well say 1/3 independent, 1/3 synapse, 1/3 broods.

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 Post subject: Few questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:30 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 14 Jul. 2009, 18:22 )

Oh they are one per army? I thought from the list it was one per formation.

Broodlords are one per formation of Genestealers; they are not a "Patriarch", that is, the "first" Genestealer on a planet, but are an "advanced" Genestealer and there can be more than one.

The fluff mentions "...swarms led by Broodlords often precede the main Tyranid advance..." implying that they're not unique or that rare.




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 Post subject: Few questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:42 pm 
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You can have two in just a game of Warhammer 40,000 ; they're not rare.

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 Post subject: Few questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:43 pm 
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I can't imagine why it would be 1 per army. They're the genestealer equivilent of commanders/formation leaders, not army generals like the patriarch.

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 Post subject: Few questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:47 pm 
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In the past it has been 0-1 per army, as it was thought they were the new "Patriarch", but they're not, they're just "more evolved" Genestealers.

And even without the limit, I don't think I've seen many in play.  *laugh*




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 Post subject: Few questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:51 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 14 Jul. 2009, 12:20 )

Oh, ok.

So apart from the fact that there is another roll involved, does it assist to help balance the list to people's main concern when facing the list?

If one extra roll of the dice would get this one step closer to a status of TESTED, then I am all for that.

Feasible or is it back to the 'drawing board' for me?

I think the problem here is that you just create another exception at that point.  The goal for Nid opponents should be to have A blast marker on enemy formations to force 3+ rolls; more than 1 is gravy.  I think the +2 to rally rolls in general remains in the spirit of reducing the effect of BMs on the army as a whole.  They're supposed to be difficult to suppress/break - that's the point of the army.  Some combined shooting followed by an assault should break most Nid formations or reduce them to low enough numbers to be ineffectual.

I can understand the desire to want to have some chance of eliminating a swarm solely from shooting, but I think the current +2 as it stands reflects the swarm/hive mind effect pretty well.


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 Post subject: Few questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:43 pm 
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oh well, back to the think tank...

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 Post subject: Few questions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:22 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 14 Jul. 2009, 18:47 )

In the past it has been 0-1 per army, as it was thought they were the new "Patriarch", but they're not, they're just "more evolved" Genestealers.

And even without the limit, I don't think I've seen many in play.  *laugh*

I think that's another case of no available model. I've got two converted from lictors (essentially just the lictor arms shortened and remounted).


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