Don't disagree, but I also don't think it will make that much difference, (and especially not with my dice ).

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Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

It will make a slight difference. 5+/6+ is almost as good as 4+, and much better against MW/TK attacks.

So, with an invulnerable save Banshees will have roughly as good a save as scorpions, and with 2+ FS they get slightly less hits in combat, but it's countered by first strike.

Otherwise just give them a 4+ save (with a design note explaining that it represents their agility or something).

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Personally i'm sold on 2+ CC, inv save and will be trying it out in my next game (Although that may not be for a while, as i'm stuck on an oil rig for the next week and a half   )

Which is a very weak argument. Power Weapons are highly abstracted in 40K, in reality they should provide enough penetrative abilities to trash tank armour AND infantry armour. Howling Banshees used to be S5 with their power weapons under the more detailed 2nd ed rules and if you compare the damages in Inquisitor, a power sword does not much less than a power fist in absolute damage even before you take the strength of the wielder into account.

It's just one of the side effects of the Toughness/Armour Value split in 40K which is absent in Epic (and indeed a very nice aspect of the rules!). It is downright odd that Banshee swords can't touch armoured vehicles in 40k but then it is strange that missile launchers can penetrate all but the toughest battle tanks but bounce off terminators. Well, 40K isn't perfect guys. Equally there are many units in Epic that are disproportionally able to deal with vehicles. How, exactly, does a scout squad with a heavy bolter shoot down a Leman Russ in a firefight? They couldn't do that in 40K. It's an abstraction.

Banshees should be armed with power weapons on their datafax to represent the unit properly. This has always been conspiciously absent from their profile. They are notably underpowered, and giving them power weapons with the normal profile would fix this. Giving them invulnerable saves or improved armour seems daft. I'm sorry, you're so bothered by the idea of a power weapon-wielding squad having power weapons that could affect vehicles, you're prepared to give them extra armour or an invulnerable save that is entirely unjustified? It's not like Banshees aren't equally good against vehicles and infantry with CC2+ - why is it okay that they can kill a hydra, say, in close combat but giving them MW would be OTT? They couldn't hurt a hydra in close combat in 40K either! But without MW they can't even touch Terminators.

They ought to have power weapons, having power weapons would make the unit work, why are we still discussing this?

Because no one is posting any testing of any of the options, that's why.  It's all been talk.

If they have MW, what should their CC value be?  Should they have an "extra attack", which is what the standard "Power Weapon" profile does.  Would both attacks have first strike?  If they had two attacks, one being MW, there'd be no reason to take Striking Scorpions anymore.

Banshees are *not* "tank busters", and giving them MW makes them that, that's why it hasn't been strongly considered, but it's not "off the table".  I just want to see some games played with 'em is all.

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No, it makes them capable of busting heavily armoured units. CC2+ makes them excellent at killing vehicles with little armour, as I've said. Some armies have most of their heavily armoured units as vehicles (IG) but with others the infantry are as armoured or more so than the AVs (SM).

Personally, I would have said a single 4+ MW FS attack would be the best (called "Banshee Power Swords" perhaps) but a straight power weapon extra attack at CC5+ could also work.

I am actually tending to agree with LI. A single 4+MW CC could well be worth trying. As he says, CC2+ is actually better against many vehicles than MW4+.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I could definately get behind that (In fact i suggested it a bit further up the thread).

Well, let's see some playtesting then, shall we?  

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I guess we all have our 'pet' themes, and the 'MW power sword' is Lord =I='s .
It could also work, but will tend to make the formation more generalist.

As we discussed on the other threads, CC4+ with FS and MW would have fewer but stronger hits than the current CC3+. This would have the desired effect against Marines (killing 4x Marines, the two surviving Marines killing 1-2 Banshees in return). They would have the same results as Shining Spears against RA targets, and might just beat terminators (the problem being their weak armour). However, with these stats they are merely slower and weaker Shining Spears, so why take them?

Statistically, 2x CC5+ FS attacks is identical to the current CC3+ FS. Making one MW would therefore be slightly more powerfull, however IMHO it is unlikely that this small change will make them much more effective. Giving them CC3+ with FS and MW just improves their anti-RA capabilities and obviously would make them much better than Spears.

I still favour CC2+FS, but want to sort out the most appropriate mobility and armour.

It seems that we need to make them really excel in their anti-infantry niche before they become even vaguely acceptable, which is the first part of the problem, surviving being the other issue. I guess we just have to test some of these permutations along with different armour and mobility values.

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Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Instead of number crunching, I'd like to see some in-game stuff; Theoryhammer is all well and good, but no plan survives contact with the enemy and you rarely get to deploy things into a perfect situation.

Heck, I'd like to up their move to 20cm as well... *laugh*  They're my favourite Aspect in 40k... and least favourite in EPIC.

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20cm move is quite possibly justified.

Essentially there are lots of good ideas, but as you say they need playtesting.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

True but just randomly disapearing off and playtesting different pet theorys generally produces no results that are of any use.

Number crunching and coming to a consensus of what to test during our none gaming time leads to a much more productive set of playtest results due to the larger no of tests (If we're all singing from the same song sheet.)

I have to say it really gets my blood up when half way through an interesting discussion it gets cut off by someone saying "Stop discussing go playtest."  It's rude and not productive.

If i could be playing epic right now, believe me i would be but i can't and so am enjoying discussing it.

I'm not cutting anyone off, but this discussion has the distinct possibility of going in circles and I'd like to prevent that.

As Army Champion, it's my *duty* to request playtesting result, can't see as how that is rude in any configuration; many of the ideas have merit, and none are jumping out as "the perfect answer" during these discussions, so seeing some in-game reports may help us narrow things down.

I'll be completely honest, even with all the possibilities discussed, I *still* wouldn't take Banshees over the other Aspects except as an aesthetic choice... their niche is too narrow and Eldar already have other tools to handle it.

That saddens me.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

I don't want people disappearing... I want them playing and reporting!  Those kinds of results can be of great use.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?