The thing is, in 40k, which "informs" our concepts for EPIC stats, Howling Banshees literally *cannot* hurt a vehicle in close combat, even with their Power Weapons, since they don't have the "Strength" to beat an armour value of 10, nor are they equipped with any kind of secondary AT weapons, such as grenades or metla-bombs.  Their Shuriken Pistols can barely hurt lighter vehicles and are useless against anything with decent armour.

I really haven't seen much playtesting using the sniper ability, and I'd really like to see some "in game" action utilizing it before we make any changes.

So, go fight!    

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Sniper
While I understand the sentiment, applying sniper would also make them good against titans which is patently not the intention. With CC2+ and assuming all get into CC, the eight units and two leaders will get ~6.6 sniper and 1.6 MW hits. Against 4+ RA this would normally cause ~2.5 damage, but with Sniper this increases to ~4.5 damage and is actually somewhat better than Shining Spears which are supposed to be anti-armour specialists (~2.5 damage).

And the use of 'sniper' on CC weapons is also controversial. IIRC the current stance is that it may be relevant to apply to FF but not CC.

First Strike on the unit
A nice idea for simplicity, but this would also mean that they would gain first strike on their FF attacks and would become a poor version of the Warp Spiders, but without the transport restrictions. If we wanted to adopt this perhaps we might need to drop the FF to 6+ both to discourage this practice and offset the CC2+ effect. We could try either approach, but on balance I would suggest that FS on the unit may cause more problems than it solves.

Ignore Cover
While I accept this improves their attacks against other infantry in cover and widens their niche a little, this effect is also limited by the single CC2+ attacks to an average of ~8.3 and a maximum of 10x hits.

IMHO, Striking Scorpions will still do better against Hordes in most circumstances (8.0 to 18.0 hits) and their better armour makes them more resislient. In most other situations, Striking Scorpions or other Aspects will still do better than the Banshees.

As Neal says, even with IC the Banshee 'niche' will still be very narrow and even adding Infiltrate and perhaps variable armour will do little to improve it.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I think the suggestion is that their CC value remains at 3+ if sniper were to be added.

Aditionally, Ginger i'm not sure where you get 2 x MW attacks from when talking about first strike on the unit.  Exarchs don't grant a MW attack.

I work out the sniper hits to be around 2.96 at 3+ with no MWs against RA4+

Shining spears have other advantages too.  They don't need expensive transport options bought for them, they don't suffer from not being able to hit and run more than 15cm if a transport dies and they have a better Sv, so IMO there's no toes being stepped on there.

In reply to Chroma's point:  I've lost count of the no of times i've lost AVs in 40K to Banshees shuriken pistols (Or any assault troops for that matter) to the rear armour.  The S5 executioner the exarch usually carries is also pretty cruel to vehicles if they get hit in the soft spots.  In addition, are we really using 40K's pretty poor rules as a base rather than just broad guidlines?

Autarch does get MW in CC, but Exarch doesn't so I guess we are both half right

Assuming the leader extra attacks are not First Strike, CC3+ would obviously reduce the number of hits generated to the current ~5.3 First Strike hits. Assuming sniper and against Marines this equates to ~3.4 dead marines as opposed to ~3.3 with plain CC2+. I agree that against 4+RA the comparison is ~2.94 damage as opposed to ~1.66 damage with plain CC2+.

So effectively the same results against infantry, but slightly better against reinforced armour. This is because the -1 'sniper' has a compound effect against RA targets. Is this what you intend?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Hmmm, good point, well made.

It's not what i intended really.  So how about we think about CC2+ FS with an inv save for Banshees?  The biggest complaint being they get mullered by return attacks, so it makes them slightly more durable and is different enough from Scorpions to give them a role.

I still don't see what that "role" would be, even with these changes.  Could you explain further?

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IMHO there are essentially three ways to avoid retaliation (or some combination of the three).

• Kill off the target outright.
  CC2+ First Strike will kill off small targets thus avoiding support fire. The problem is picking the right target in the right location.
  
• Improved armour
  Invulnerable save is a good idea, alternatively 'variable' armour (5+ normally, but 4+ in an assault), or just make it 4+ (to reflect their agility). Putting the Banshees in Wave Serpents and getting these into B-B also helps (and helps with the post assault mobility), but is vulnerable to MW and especially TK weapons.
  
• Improved mobility
  Giving the Banshees Infiltrate allows them to pick off leaders etc, but only a 15cm consolidation move. Giving them 30cm movement (for their agility) would allow them to escape after the combat, but removes the ability to pick out valuable targets. Wave Serpents also help but are costly.

I guess we should test all of these options, but my preference is for both improved mobility and improved armour, so try 30cm with 4+ armour, and the alternative of adding Wave Serpents to the formation.

As a really wacky thought, perhaps the Wave Serpents could be a different cost for Banshees or even free??

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

so as i see it theres 2 main stay points of this entire thread.

1 : banshees are inferior scorpions with no flavour of there own.

2 : banshees dont kill enough to reduce the return damge.



so to start with point 2. the obvious solution is to increase there amour save, whats they i hear you cry!! but then they will be just like scorpions .. partially true yes.  but lets just go with it for a moment, so if in truth the above 2 points are the major flaws of the banshees, then increasesing amour fixes 50% of the problem ?   so now we only have point 1 to deal with and this is where the option to "add" flavor or individualisim comes in.
In regards to amour i can think of anywhere or reason that scropion amour is better / stronger/ more durable than banshee amour. ( i maybe wrong but jsut something i have never read in fluff)

As for point 1, well in my humble opinon first strike is a must as it pertty much reflects the banshee masks ability on the money,  so really + 1A  = scorpions  with FS, 1 attack jsut doesnt seem enough ...  so options .. give them another ability .. ?
And here lies the problem that under the current rule set there isnt any inherit ability that fits the mould they need. so as i see it yes there maybe be a need for another special rule or alternativly maybe change the scorpion exarch line to include  +1MW A cc.
Personally i dont see the huge offense against another special rule, or it may not even have to be a  "special rule" per say it couuld jsut be a new unit skill type I.e. : sniper / Scout / Etc..  so just for example "Penetrate"  Units with this ability apply -1 save modifiers to infantry.  just a example.. but you get the idea, it would be a core unit rule rather than a special rule, and who knows there maybe other units that may need the same skill to improve or round out them so then once its a shared skill over more than on unit type / army selection its not so specialised to eldar only.

anyways these are jsut some of my thoughts on the topic.


Cheers


Tim NZ

Since 1st Edition, Striking Scorpions have had 3+ armour saves in 40k, while Banshees only have 4+. Their extra staying power has always been one of the main strength of Scorpions relative to Banshees.

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ah ok well that clears that up then hehe.

cheers


Tim NZ

- - - and the "-1 to infantry saves" or even "Infantry MW"  would be the ideal rule to show their power against medium to heavy armoured infantry (marines and terminators) - but this means a 'special rule' that is generally disliked.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

but thats my point it doesnt have to be a eldar specific rule it could just be another rule like sniper or scout or such, and be used in variant list  or for other units that need a boost  at some stage hence making it no so much a special rule as a addtional unit type rule ?

Could be, but "special rule creep" is something that should be avoided if possible.

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The special rule would probably be one of the best ways to reflect the way the Banshees work, but ultimately, even if we get the stats right the biggest problem is that the niche is quite specialised. They should work well picking off infantry formations on the flanks of a Marine or Black Legion army, but other Aspects will work better in most other situations.

It this narrow niche that is ultimately the hardest part to overcome. And it is not as if they would work better mixed with other Aspects - the whole point of 'first strike' is to get rid of the enemy units that will hurt you. Consequently they should work best in an all Banshee formation to maximise the first strike capability.

These problems are further compounded by the tactics the Banshees have to use. Being CC troops they will never be able to 'clip' opposing formations precisely because they have to get into B-B with opposing units.

Indeed, it could be helpfull to discuss the best tactics - eg putting Wave Serpents into B-B with target units to absorb some of the return dice, or reducing the number of Banshees in B-B etc

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I kinda like the idea of an invulnerable save to represent their leaping around the place.

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