Yes it is indeed completely at odds with my view of the nature of the Tyranid army/race.



Apologies for labelling the list byzantine, I'm in the mood to use silly words today, must be this interminable heat; how's 'quite possibly unnessesarily complicated when a more simple and elegant implementation could do the job of representing the Tyranid army well too' fit?

As to "seemingly against the flow of the background", care to back that up with some relevant quotes from the books, as Zombo would counsel?

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Example: Genestealers - Tyranids use them both as an infiltration force *and* as front-line shock troopers.  Same creature, completely different roles.

When out on their own, they act independently doing their own thing, but furthering the will of the Hive Mind, if somewhat indirectly, and can potentially break and flee if they meet strong resistance.

When within the range of a Synapse Creature they become ignore morale and will fight right to the bitter end, never backing off.

So, same creature, acts quite differently when with or away from direct Synapse control and is "dual-use"; how does that jive with your view of the nature of Tyranids?

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

The thing is, in the scope of EPIC the Indpendent Swarm Gargoyles *aren't* more reliable... they're far more likely to accumulate Blast markers and/or break than those led by a Synapse Creature... it's only once those Synapse Creatures have been destroyed that the Synapse Swarm Gargoyles get momentarily confused and undirected... until either snagged by another Synapse Swarm and told what to do or gathered into flocks via spawning.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

So you agree with me that they are not more reliable when outside of Syanpse range, that they are less reliable, as they must rely on their ld.10 for several types of test, including 'command' tests and close combat leadership tests.

So why are Gargoyles and Raveners, when attached to an Independent formation, more reliable instead of less reliable?


The practical result of the rule is at odds with how you would expect a brood creature to behave outside of Synapse range.

Expected behaviour: Less reliable (disappears when Synapse dies).
Behaviour in Epic: More reliable (fights on until last unit is killed).


That's not an abstract representational mechanic, that's a mechanic at clear odds with the background, and the Warhammer 40,000 leadership rules that seemingly inspired this implementation of Independent Brood creatures in the first place.

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But it's inconsistent about what happens when they're away from synapse. If they start with synapse then lose it they vanish, but if they never have synapse they're fine? That's the problem Chroma.

They should always behave the same way when away from synapse control, whether that is acting as normal or disapearing.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I disagree, a Gargoyle swarm that has lost its Harridan can fly off and claim an objective for you, whilst a Gargoyle swarm that has lost its Hive Tyrant must immediately find a new Synapse swarm or else join the pile of dead/fled units at the side of the board.

There's a moment of crisis there where the rules do something completely different with the same unit type, and it's quite a bit more important than a pip of initiative, it's the difference between life and death, retaining their status as an Activation and losing an Activation.

As I said before, that's almost diametrically opposed to how I see the Tyranid armies operating, and like Zombocom says, it is not a consistent mechanic.

Either the list should go with one mechanic (Synapse death removes brood units, all brood creatures led by synapse creatures of some sort) or another mechanic (formations act like normal formations as seen in other armies, ala the French system, and the Independent swarms in the ERC list).

Using elements of both mechanics at once (as the ERC list currently does) is... gordian?

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Imagine 2 formations (not sure if the numbers are legal, but that's not the point):

Formation 1:

Trygon
6 Raveners

Formation 2:

2x Tyranid Warriors
6 Raveners

Imagine that the Trygon is killed with a round of shooting, leaving a formation of 6 Raveners with 3 blast markers.

Imagine that both the Tyranid Warriors are killed with another round of shooting, leaving a formation of 6 Raveners with 3 blast markers.

We now have two identical formations, yet one of them will vanish at the end of the turn. That's the inconsistancy I'm referring to, and even Hena admits it's a problem.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Actually, it's still binary, as both mechanics are never used at the same time... hardly gordian.

And the phrase "Synapse death" intrigues me as that seems to be an easy, appropriate, and elegant rationale for what's happening.  

The Independent Swarms are not so directly "plugged in" to the Hive Mind, they are semi-autonomous, that's what "Indpendent Swarm" means!  So they suffer Blast markers for casualties and such, but that also acts as a bit of protection, as the shock of sudden loss of Hive Mind connectivity, here the death of all local Synapse creatures, doesn't throw them into confusion as it would creatures more "closely" linked in a Synapse Swarm.  

Those creatures that are in a Synapse Swarm feels that loss much more deeply, as they are used to "relying" on the close support of the Hive Mind, so they must reconnect or be scattered in confusion.

See, that all seems valid to me.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Yes, because the Synapse Swarm Raveners were more closely linked to the Hive Mind and, therefore, feel Its loss that much more keenly.

The Independent Swarm Raveners are "used" to being more removed from Hive Mind contact.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

True, but subtley different. As you presented the original concept, the "brood" creature did not act like one when added to the independent formation. By going about it in reverse and adding a non brood creature to the swarm, the "independent" creature can still act like one; getting BMs, not disappearing etc.

This way, the two examples presented by Zombo still work, because by killing the Synapse creature, the "all ravener" formation becomes an "independant" formation. If we adopt the French idea of variable initiatives the formation can still act, but is slightly less likely to behave as expected. Indeed, by killing the Synapse in a "mixed" swarm, at the end of the turn the brood creatures would go to ground leaving a much smaller "independant" formation.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Do you have any background or other game rules quote that can justify this, or is this just your own idea? This is entirely opposite to everything I've read on synapse/nid interactions.

"'used' to being more removed", "feel Its loss that much more keenly"; these are emotive concepts entirely alien to nids.

3rd ed rulebook:

"Individual Tyranids have no distinct minds like humans and other creatures - A Tyranid simply fulfils the functions assigned to it by the greater hive mind. The smaller mindless creatures are unthinking and instinctive, but larger more complex creatures can make decisions apropriate to the situation."

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Funny this is mentioned by person hell bent on getting rules to go against background by applying crappy 40k rules which goes against background in a first place

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www.tneva.net

tneva82: I've posted background quotes to support my arguments, I've yet to see the same from you despite several requests.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Umm Hena, I think there are at least two viable alternatives that have been presented:-
a) Take "brood" away from Gargoyles and Raveners and let these "independant" creatures be added to Synapse swarms.

b) Additionally replace "brood" with "expendable" so Gaunts act like Grots, but stay around instead of disappearing when the Synapse dies. This alternative assumes variable initiatives.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt