For the third time, please show a quote from the background that shows you are correct.

Constantly saying that the background says you're right doesn't prove anything. If you can show me where in the background it says this I'll happily concede the point.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

@tneva82: You misunderstand zombocom. He only states that the only source for the behaviour of synapseless Tyranids we have as hard facts are the Wh40k rules.
If you (or anyone) have more sources (preferably fluff-sources of course!) then please quote them.
But you should understand that the earliest rules for Tyranids in Wh40k, which features Instictual Behaviour when outside of Synapse range, are based on the fluff about Tyranids. Because i really can't believe that, as the GW developers invented the Tyranids, first developed the rules and then the fluff about them.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

The only quote about this at all that I can find is from the 3rd edition codex (I can't find the 4th ed one at the moment), which says:


Beyond the immediate reach of the hive mind, lesser Tyranid creatures will often revert to their basic, often animalistic instincts.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

When Kryptman killed a Leviathan Norn Queen with an engineered virus, the various Tyranid creatures started attacking each other instead of the enemy...

Gotta wait until I get home to go over more of the Bug Fluff... ew... Bug Fluff!

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

One might consider that experiencing the death of the greater part of your conciousness would be a bit different for the Gaunts than just being a bit further away from your conciousness?

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

@Chroma: Your example could be interpreted that there are higher and lower instances of Hive Mind influence.
The Norn Queen could be the direct connection to the Hive Mind. If she is killed the complete Swarm has its connection severed.
But if only a minor Synapse creature, say a Hive Tyrant, is killed the lesser Tyranid creatures will still be vaguely connected with the Hive Mind through the Norn Queen.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Can someone summarise this to avoid all the tit-for-tat point scoring.

As far as I can see we seem to have a Hive mind controlling swarms via the Synapses and some "independant" things roaming around (in a semi-controlled manner?).

So I believe there are two points in the discussion:-
- What happens to the swarm when the link to the Hive mind is broken?
- How to handle gargoyles that can be both part of a swarm and 'independant'?

Is there anything else being discussed?

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

This question has already been answered... just not sure if it's in this thread or the actual Gargoyle one.

The "Swarm that has lost Synapse" debate is more new.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

With great respect, I do not think the 'gargoyle question' has been answered - having units that look identical but behave differently is not going to be resoved by 'keeping track of them'. There has to be a better mechanism to achieve this that does what you desire without the confusion.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Exactly. And thus the idea was to get rid of the current Swarm rules but replace them with something which reflects the background too.
The idea was:
- Fixed Swarms (but Spawning still remains).
But then Synapses would have no role in a Tyranid army anymore so the idea was:
- Initiative Penalty for Swarms which have lost their Synapses.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

- How to handle gargoyles that can be both part of a swarm and 'independant'?

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Yep. Tyranids don't transform into harmles headless chickens when away from their Synapses.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Harmless no. Inefficient fighting unit yes. If they were still efficient fighting units tyranid armies wouldn't be slaughtered after they lose synapse control as they constantly are in the background information. Even resorting to infighting.

If we were playing skirmish game there could be detailed rules what happens when synapse goes but since this is supposed to be epic sized battles we need abstracted way to deal with it. Most logical being unit is removed from play until they find their way back to synapse creature(spawning).

Only logical alternative would be flow chart describing forced moves but that's bad game design.

_________________
www.tneva.net

The question about how to deal with a swarm without a synapse has been around much longer. The ERC approach of removing these leaderless critters works on one level, but perhaps is a simplification too far, hence the French approach of reduced initiative.

If a significantly reduced initiative is unacceptable, other alternatives could be :-
- That the swarm can only take certain actions. Perhaps it can only attempt to assault enemy formations?
- That the swarm stays put and loses any activation capability. It just represents an area under the control of Tyranids (so it still contests objectives)
- That the swarm will make a single move in the end phase in a random direction, assaulting anything that it contacts (both Tyranid and enemy)

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

The Synapse-less Broods only go away in the End Phase now, so you can still use them, still try to get them near to Synapse or bring Synapse near them.  They can still assault, shoot, etc, etc, they don't just go "poof".

They don't "completely absent themselves"... they wait around until the Hive Mind reconnects them to give them new orders, via Spawning.

In the current rules, those Synapse-less creatures are considered tactically ineffective, but they can be rendered effective again by being brought within control of a Synapse.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?