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Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus

 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:47 pm 
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While I'm not the most experienced of EA players, I've enjoyed Chaos and Evil's AMTL list, but I can't help but think of the need for Chaos to have its own Titan legions take the field of Battle - as of the moment we do have plenty of Titans lying around as Warmachine Detatchments for the major Chaos lists but I feel the urge to work on generating a list of the Fallen members of the Adeptus Titanicus - and the Dark Mechanicus as a whole,though at the moment this is in the brainstorming stage I have a few ideas for the list thus far, at the moment the plan is somewhat to use C&E's list as a model to evolve from,currently brainstormed stuff as follows:

Core Formations:

Emperor-class Battle Titan - this is one I'm not sure on, I'm deathly certain that a Chaos Emperor should be in the list given the precident of Dies Irae, but I'm not to sure on how to impliment it, my feeling as it stands is to only allow them in limited numbers or compensate for the rarity and age of such things with increased points cost - like I said though not sure as of yet.

Daemontitan/Titan-Champion/Daemon Machine of the Primordial Destructor - a bit of a departure from traditions perhaps but I feel there is something of a need to differentiate between Chaos Warlord/Reavers, and the Banelord/Ravager and their Nurgle/Tzeentch/Slaneesh equivilents - the idea would be very much to limit the numbers of these units available (and prevent cooperation between rival gods), while providing a variety of upstats to make them significantly different from those fallen Titans that haven't been possesed/been in the warp for an extended period - these should accuratley represent Titans that have been elevated to Champions of the Chaos Gods. Within the limitations there would be no undivided Warlords of this nature, only Daemon's with the sponsorship of one of the four Chaos Gods would have the power to defeat all the competition to claim possesion of one of the God-Machines they've taken from the Imperium. These would likely be non-Modular units to compensate for superiority in certain areas.

Traitor Warlord - Likely similar to the Warlord from C&E's list, though I believe for sake of ballance some alteration might need to be made to ballance the list and stop it becoming like the Chaos Space Marine lists of 40k which used to come off as 'Space Marines, but with extra toys' - perhaps pruning some of the more 'advanced' weapons types from the C&E list in exchange for Marks of Chaos - I'm personally inclined to suggest that these would be 'Mortal' Units, with their corrupted crews still alive.

Traitor Reaver - As above the Traitor Reaver would be similar to the standard C&E AMTL Reaver, though there is the possibility for the need again for account for A) its increased rarity from the normal Titan legions, B) Allowing for use of Marks of Chaos without making it just 'a Reaver with better options'.

The Alternative of course, is to change things so that the Traitor Warlord and the Traitor Reaver can be upgraded to their Daemonic 'Champion' types, and limit the increased strength of these by forcing weapons limitation options upon upgraded units so that they better reflect their gods - the aim is to emulate the AMTL but not build upon it, the units have to be significantly ballanced in the sense that they should NOT be AMTL but with more options - so a methodology of limitation needs to be implicated - possibly by upping the cost of Chaos units, or restricting their numbers.

Support Formations

Feral Titan/Feral Titan Pack - Wether Daemonpossesed or not, the Warhound in a chaos list likely prowls around on the edge and ahead of the formation looking to claim vulnerable kills before their larger bretheren beat them to it - I don't see much reason to change anything between the Feral and the Warhound as I feel daemon-possesion won't really change how they behave.

Shockroaches/Weaponised Servitors - Replacing Sentinels, these units would serve the purpose they did in the Titanicus novel, which appeared to be 'roaming kill teams' it might be possible to vary these from just forming a replacement unit by giving them small arms and CC weaponry...again, not to sure how to handle these units at the moment.

Dark Mechanicus Skitarii - possibly, if one limits the number of Titans a Fallen Legion can take, it might be possible to grant them a horde of Minions to skitter around their feet - if not, these can be 0-1 per transport-slot in an appropriate transport Titan.

Swiftdeath/Helltalon - I don't see much reason to do much alteration to these, they provide an Airforce compliment to the warmachines on the ground.

Orbital Support - As Black Legion list, after all, the DM uses the same ships.

Just some early brainstorming I've been up to...thoughts?

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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:31 pm 
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That's a fantastic idea! :agree:

I've thought for ages that Chaos should have a titan list (customisable titan options from which could then be used in a normal chaos list in friendlies too), but for some reason not fully thought about it and the Dark Mechanicus.

I've read Mechanicus and Titanicus, but not Dark Mechanicum or any other Black Library book featuring the Dark Mechanicus. What other units do they have different from normal mechanicus?


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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:42 pm 
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Theres not much background as to how the Dark Mechanicus differentiates - and largely I'd imagine them to be a bit more vibrant than their Mechanicus cousins - they're Mechanicus without any conversatism and restraint so far more morally depraved, and willing to do far more horrific things in the persuit of science.

From what we know so far, the vast majority of new-style Chaos Tech is constructed by them, Planet Killer, Defilers, and other Daemon Engines seem to be their area of expertise, as well as possesing many of the units that their Loyalist bretheren such as Skitarii and Servitors - I resisted the idea of adding many Daemon-Engines to the concept list because I largely wanted to focus on Fallen Titans and not other Chaos Machines.




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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:49 pm 
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Feral Titan


If adding the 'Feral' configuration Warhound weapons to the AMTL army list I'd probably apply the following prices:


Death Storm - 4x AP4+ / 4x AP5+, 45cm  -  15pts
Hellmouth - 3BP, Macro-Weapon, Ignores Cover, 30cm - 50pts (scout or battle titans).


The book 'Titanicus' makes repeated mentions of Chaos Warhounds armed with 'Bidents' (a two-pronged weapon), so that'd be something like:

Bident Close Combat Weapon - Extra Attacks (+3), Titan-Killer (1)  -  Free (scout Titans only).




Ravager Titan

For the 'Ravager' configuration Reaver Titan, the following weapon costs would be about right:

Doomburner - MW2+, Titan Killer (1), Ignores Cover, 45cm - 25pts
Death Storm - 4x AP4+ / 4x AP5+, 45cm  -  15pts
Tail - AP4+/AT4+, 75cm, and Extra Attacks (1), Base Contact - 10pts




Banelord Titan

For the 'Banelord' configuration Warlord Titan weapons, here are my thoughts on weapon costings:

Doomfist - 4x AP4+/AT4+, 30cm, and Extra Attacks +2, base contact, TK(D3) - 15pts
Hellstrike Cannon - 3BP, Macro-Weapon, Ignores Cover, 60cm - 75pts
Havoc Missile Rack - 6x 2BP, Indirect, 60cm, Single Shot, takes two carapace slots - Free
Tail - AP4+/AT4+, 75cm, and Extra Attacks (1), Base Contact - 10pts




================


Those three sets above yeild Titans costing:

- 'Feral' configuration Warhound Titan - 340pts (Black Legion cost 300pts)
- 'Ravager' configuration Reaver Titan - 640pts (Black Legion cost 650pts)
- 'Banelord' configuration Warlord Titan - 825pts (Black Legion cost (800pts)



I would forget about the 'Battle Head' extra Firefight attacks upgrade and Firefight stat downgrades that the Black Legion Titans all recieve, and assume that's a Black Legion only thing (Chaos Titans in Warhammer 40,000 / the background aren't all fitted with Battle Heads, in fact it seems to be a very rare upgrade outside of the Epic Black Legion army list).



I'd try and work some kind of 'Chaos Blessings' upgrade set in there, such as Khorne giving a couple of extra CC attacks, Slaanesh giving some extra movement speed, Tzeentch giving a special saving throw for void shields, etc. or similar.

I'd allow Chaos Titans with Blessings to summon 2D3 Daemons aligned to their particular God.  :devil:


I'd resist removing too many weapon systems, as Chaos Titans do have access to all the same weapons as their loyalist counterparts, plus a few extras. All depictions of Titans from all editions of the game agree on this.


I would possibly remove the Supreme Commander upgrade entirely, as each Titan might be seen as fighting for itself only, and there being no overall command structure for them unlike their more regimented Imperial cousins.


Obviously remove the Thunderbolt and Marauder and replace with Hellblade and Helltalon.


Same for the spacecraft.


I'd just use the standard configuration Imperator Titan for the Dies Irae, but I'd remove the Warmonger Titan. Maybe have a modification to the tower weapons as the Dies Irae is supposed to carry at least one Megabolter on it somewhere, possibly replacing the tower Quake Cannon for a suitable points discount?


I like the idea of having Weaponised Servitors.

Dark Skitarii would likely not differ in stats from their loyalist bretheren.




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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:14 pm 
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I'd like to see Dark Mechanicus and Chaos Titan Legions lists.

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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:17 pm 
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And the DarkMechanicus certainly would have acsess to Obliterators.

Instead of Chaos Marks i would transform a Titan to its given counterpart from the Cult Legion armylist.
eg:
Undivided/Chaos Glory = basic Chaos Warlord
Mark of Khorne = Banelord
Mark of Tzeentch = Augur/Warplord
Marlk of Slaanesh = Painlord
Markk of Nurgle = Plaguelord




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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:26 pm 
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I'm saving working on Dark Mechanicus core list straight away, first things first is the Titans.

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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:57 pm 
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I’d say go for marks and variety, rather than forcing people who want to take a Khorne Daemon titans to have to choose a Bane Lord and its’ particular kit every time – the very nature of Chaos is change and variety and customisability should be a possibility here. The list should be pointed so that unmarked chaos titans are worthwhile choices though – maybe the specific titans could have advantages and disadvantages (Khorne better combat, worse shooting, Slaanesh greater speed, one less DC, Nurgle slower possible, 1 more DC, Tzeentch less CC, better FF) and/or less weapon options.

Where did the names for those come from anyway? A Slaaneshi one should surely be a Pleasure Lord and not a Pain Lord? Slaanesh hates pain! It’s one of the reasons he doesn’t get on with Khorne.

I rather like the idea of them all being for themselves and not having a Supreme Commander.


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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:28 pm 
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Things that need new stats/ need to be implicated into the list:

Traitor Emperor-class Battle Titan

Weaponised Servitors ‘Shockroaches’

Hellfury/Helltalon

Traitor Orbital Support

Things that can be kept over from C&E’s list:

Warlord Titan (rename ‘Traitor Warlord Titan’)

Reaver Titan (rename ‘Traitor Reaver Titan’)

Warhound Titan/Titan Pack (rename ‘Feral Scout Titan’)

Skitarii Demi-Century (rename ‘Dark Mechanicus Skitarii Demi-Century), keep 0-1 per transport module.

Things to be removed:

Thunderbolt/Marauder

Mechanicus Orbital Support

Sacred Icon

Legate

Sentinel

Upgrades:

Favoured of Khorne/Slaneesh/Tzeentch/Nurgle: Inspiring, Unholy Relic (Summon D3 Daemons of Favoured God) – Champion of the Primordial Destructor (allows unit to pick from the weapons pool of its Favoured God). Restricted to 0-1 Per every three core Titan Formations, Weapons Pool selection only applies to Warlord/Reavers.

Princeps Dominant (0-1 Per Titan Formation) - Commander, Leader

Carapace Multilasers

Weapons Pools and points costs to be devised shortly.




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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:35 pm 
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Sounding great so far! Can I suggest you call it a Chaos/Traitor Warhound or a 'Feral' Warhound? W40k players aren't going to have a clue what a Feral Titan is as it's always called a Chaos Warhound in W40k.


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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:38 pm 
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Quote: (British @ 29 Jun. 2009, 22:28 )

Sacred Icon

You could certainly have a "Blasphemous Icon" in there...

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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:56 pm 
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Yep, the Vraksian list in 40k for example allows apostate priests to carry "unholy icons", which have the same effect as imperial "holy icons"

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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:06 pm 
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Quote: (GlynG @ 29 Jun. 2009, 22:35 )

Sounding great so far! Can I suggest you call it a Chaos/Traitor Warhound or a 'Feral' Warhound? W40k players aren't going to have a clue what a Feral Titan is as it's always called a Chaos Warhound in W40k.

Agreed.

I regard the 'Feral' designation as a weapons configuration name, just like 'wolf' 'jackal' and 'hyena' are all weapons configuration names for Imperial Warhound Titans.

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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:22 pm 
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Fair enough, Traitor Warhound Titan it is.

As for the Sacred Icon - I'm tending towards keeping the 'Favoured' upgrade with that rolled in - as with C&E's suggestion,the idea of every Titan beeing out for itsself makes it more intresting to have the rest of the Titan Legion opting to following what are essentially Chaos Champions in God Machine form - who are essentially the 'alpha's' of the pack  and inspire the other Titans around them (be they demonic or crewed) to fight harder.

If anyone has access to the older Chaos lists and can provide details of the old Chaos Titan weapons it would be much appreciated.




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 Post subject: Fallen Titan Legions/Dark Mechanicus
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:07 am 
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Once again somewhat indebted to E&C for the reuse of most of his weapons costs,


Scout/Battle Titan Weapons
Inferno Gun, Vulcan Megabolter, Plasma Blastgun   Free
Bident Close Combat Weapon            Free (scout Titans only)
Turbolaser Destructor                                    +25pts

Battle Titan Weapons
Titan Close Combat Weapon, Laser Burner, Skitarii Cages, Carpace Landing Pad Free
Plasma Cannon, Gatling Blaster, Apocalypse Rocket Launcher                          +25pts
Melta Cannon, Laser Blaster (Triple-Turbolaser), Volcano Cannon                     +50pts
Plasma Destructor, Support Missile, Quake Cannon    +75pts

Right, simple enough there, keep it nice and simple to start with, now we have to handle the weapons options that each of the gods presents us – I have a few ideas for how to do this though – the first could be to stick with my above idea and hold with only giving these upgrades with the ‘Favored Titans’ this would however leave Warhounds a bit out of pocket. My other idea is that if one Titan has been given the Favored upgrade of a god, all other Favored Titans have to follow the same god – but in exchange all Titans from the army can access the weapons from the pools of their respective gods – this goes in line with what we do know about Chaos Titan Legions with single-god devotions

Khorne Scout/Battle Titan Weapons:
Death Storm            +15pts
Hellmouth                                           +50pts

Khorne Battle Titan Weapons:
Havoc Missile Rack (uses two carapace slots)    Free
Doomburner, Doomfist                 25pts
Tail (0-1 per Titan, d/n occupy weapon slot)      10pts

Nurgle/Slaneesh/Tzeentch to follow

Things the list desperately needs: physical descriptions of weapons, what with many of the Chaos Titans committed to distant archived memories people need to be supplied with the actual knowledge of weapons appearance to aid modelling.




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