FF4+ did not make it to the 2008 errata etc, but it makes sense in comparison with the other Marine and IG tanks. The LR has 6x barrels (all twin linked). So we get CC5+, FF4+ as a basic stat.

I understood the Redeemer had two Firestorm cannon (not Heavy flamer) which are apparently the equivalent of the Inferno cannon mounted on the Hellhound. The stats for the Hellhound with a single Inferno cannon are AP3+ 30cm IC with FF3+, and the LRR has two of them (as well as a Twin-linked assault cannon)! So it would seem to have significantly better ranged fire than the Crusader, and ought to be rather better than the Hellhound in assault. So 2x FF3+ with IC does seem to be arguable.

If the Crusader is a close assault specialist with the Hurricane cannon being designed for the purpose, 2x FF4+ also seems a reasonable argument.

In summary

Standard LR

AV,         Move 25cm,      Arm 4+,          FF4+,        CC5+,
1x Heavy Bolter,              AP4+      (30cm)
2x Twin Lascannon           AT4+      (45cm),
Notes :- Reinforced Armour, Thick rear armour, Transport 1x Termie or 2x others

Crusader LR

AV,         Move 25cm,      Arm 4+,          FF4+,        CC5+,
1x twin Assault cannon,     AP4+/AT4+ (30cm)
2x Hurricane Bolters,                          (small arms) EA+1
Notes :- Reinforced Armour, Thick rear armour, Transport 2x Termie or 3x others

Redeemer LR

AV,         Move 25cm,      Arm 4+,          FF3+,        CC5+,
1x twin Assault cannon,         AP4+/AT4+ (30cm)
Flamestorm cannons,             AP3+          (15cm) Ignore Cover
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . and (small arms) Ignore cover, EA+1
Notes :- Reinforced Armour, Thick rear armour, Transport 1x Termie or 2x others

(and TRC, I agree with you - add Librarian and air-insert )

But is +75 points per upgrade still viable??

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

The Redeemer's Flamestorm cannons are similar to the Hellhound's Inferno Cannon, except:

- It has a point better Armour Penetration (is better at killing heavy infantry like Space Marines as it ignores their armour saves).

- It has a range of 0" instead of 18".

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Ginger: Again, the flamestorm is MUCH shorter ranged than the hellhound's weapon; it has the same range as a heavy flamer, which is 15cm in Epic. 30cm is just not justified in any way.

Also, the standard LR should have CC6+, the CC5+ is to represent the frag launchers on the varients.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

The cheat with the stupid flamers is the apocalypse fiddle whereby 2 or more combine into a longer ranged shot. Hence (cannon) 2x15cm or (cannons) 1x30cm.

Virtually all the redeemer test games were with 2x15cm (and a multi-melta), with Neal being a particular fan (I still hate the damn things, silly gun), though towards the later stages it occured to me that other lists where air attack was more viable you would simply fly it in and flame everything at close range.

Hence BL coming up with the fiddle that to date has sadly only been tried in 2 or 3 games.

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I second zombocom and Evil&Chaos.

And for the record:
Hurricane Bolter System = 3 x 24" Strength 4, ArmourPiercing 5.

MY proposed stats would be:

Land Raider Crusader
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 25cm 4+ 5+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
TwinAssaultCannon 30cm AP4+/AT4+ -
HurricaneBolterSystems (15cm) Small Arms ExtraAttack(+1)
Mutli-melta 15cm MW5+ Macro-weapon
and (15cm) Small Arms Macro-weapon
Frag Launchers (base contact) Assault Weapons -

Notes: Reinforced Armour. Transport (may carry two Terminator units OR three of the following units: Space Marine Tactical, Devastator & Scout units). The Multi-melta can shoot and confers the Macro-weapon ability to the units basic firefight attack.

Land Raider Redeemer
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 25cm 4+ 5+ 2+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
TwinAssaultCannon 30cm AP4+/AT4+ -
2 x Flamestorm Cannon 15cm AP3+ Ignore Cover
and (15cm) Small Arms Ignore Cover
Frag Launchers (base contact) Assault Weapons -

Notes: Reinforced Armour. Transport (may carry one Terminator units OR two of the following units: Space Marine Tactical, Devastator & Scout units). The Flamestorm Cannons can shoot and confer the Ignore Cover ability to the units basic firefight attack..

Alternative stats:

Land Raider Redeemer
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 25cm 4+ 5+ 2+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
TwinAssaultCannon 30cm AP4+/AT4+ -
Flamestorm Cannons 30cm AP3+ Ignore Cover
and (15cm) Small Arms Ignore Cover
Frag Launchers (base contact) Assault Weapons -

Notes: Reinforced Armour. Transport (may carry one Terminator units OR two of the following units: Space Marine Tactical, Devastator & Scout units). The Flamestorm Cannons can shoot and confer the Ignore Cover ability to the units basic firefight attack..

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Interesting thoughts BL. So you would prefer to maximise the potential assault capabilities to a single hit on both tanks.

I agree with E&C and Zombocom that the Crusader should not have the MM, and that there chould be an absolute maximum of 2x dice. Lord =I= and the others make a good case for restricting the Redeemer Flamestorms to a maximum of 15cm (or even just small arms) but with IC. The main issue here seems to be whether to give it better firepower (2x AP3+ shots), or better assault (AP3+ EA+1).

So in summary, the options are
Crusader

a) MM MW5+ (15cm) with 3x FF5+ attacks
b) 2x FF4+ attacks
c) MM MW5+ (15cm) with 1x FF4+ MW attack

Redeemer

a) FF3+ with 2x AP3+ (15cm) IC
b) FF3+ with AP3+ (15cm) IC EA+1
c) FF2+ with 2x AP3+ (15cm) IC

Flamestorm cannon
From the last few posts it seems that the Flamestorm cannon cannot really justify 30cm, and I would suggest that making it only 'small arms' would underpower the LRR with respect to the LRC.

Pintle mounted Multi-Melta
There seems to be an aversion to giving either tank the Multi Melta; it overpowers the LRC, while the LRR should be anti-infantry only. However I have left this option on the LRC because it is the stated direction of the army champion (Hena), and BL has made a counter-suggestion that also includes it

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Hena:  Have you nailed down stats to use for LR variants?

If so, do you mind starting a thread we can pin for reference that has just playtest stats (i.e. without discussion)?

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Neal