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Fixing land raiders - not costing

 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:57 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 17 Jun. 2009, 14:41 )

Quote: (Ginger @ 17 Jun. 2009, 13:23 )

And a final question - is CC5+ 'too good', or should it be applied generally?

I fail to see on the two tanks that expect to be CC'ed that 5+ is a massive boost over 6+

Again this is relative. Few tanks get more than CC6+ reflecting their weakness to close assaults, unless they have something else that boost their CC ability (like your frag-launchers).

I am not saying this is a definite "no", merely asking if this would be generally fitted and thus available to all LR; thereby keeping the LR stats comparable and potentially that bit better than for example, LeMan Russ.

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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:59 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 17 Jun. 2009, 12:48 )

The proposed LRC has 3x FF5+ attacks (one of which is MW)


We've playtested the 3x 5+ (one MW) Land Raider a whole bunch, and it's too good.

I am very surprised this came out so strongly, since most games will have at most 4 crusaders in. Assuming they fight 2 firefights and none die thats an average of 2 2/3's MW hits (and I doubt they get to FF that much) for all 4 tanks fighting in 2 assaults.

Incidentally I'm all for low FF with extra attacks. This is because if they get to 3+/4+ I know where I will put a librarian if I ever take one.

There is also the not-insignificant chance that the Melta Crusader can score a full three hits, which the two shot Crusader of course cannot do.

Hmm, stats fail here? :) It has a 4 in 108 chance of 3 hits and a 32 in 108 chance of no hits vs for 4+, 27 in 108 chance of no hits and 27 in 108 of 2 hits. I think its somewhat equal.

Though it does seem to indicate for you to be noticing this you have been quite lucky with them.

If say 4 crusaders attack a bunch of orks in the city (so 4+ saves) with 3FF5+ they will get on average 4 hits and 2 kills. With MW they will get 2 6/9 hits and 1 3/9MW hits meaning 2 6/9 kills. If the orks were in a wood it would be 2 6/9 vs 3 1/9 kills, if in the open or if the orks were attacking 3 3/9 vs 3 5/9. The differences for the most tricky infantry target too quite open is 6/9's of a kill more to 2/9's more. In both cases pretty small. In the most common situation of 2 being added to a formation that is only 1/3 of a kill more compared to non MW against a 4+ save.

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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:04 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 17 Jun. 2009, 14:57 )

I am not saying this is a definite "no", merely asking if this would be generally fitted and thus available to all LR; thereby keeping the LR stats comparable and potentially that bit better than for example, LeMan Russ.

I think as a consumable miunition that presumably has a wieght and therefir increased strain on the machine etc etc it would be used, but only on things likely to end up at point blank range. It should at least be on the Crusader as its an assault weapon. The Redeemer isn't supposed to be unloading troops straight into comabat as much, so wouldn't need it in the same way.

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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:09 pm 
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Hmm, stats fail here?

4 in 108 (if your maths is right, I haven't checked it) is 1 in 27. Assuming you have 4 Land Raider Crusaders and they conduct an engagement (divide 27 by 4), one of those Crusaders will roll 3 hits 1 in 6.75 times, not insignificant, and likely to occur in 1-in-3 games if the Crusaders manage just two engagements (or Support Fire actions!) during the entire game.

Manage 3 Engagements or Support Fire actions, and likelyhood approaches highly probable instead of highly unlikely. Certainly I've seen single Crusaders roll 3 hits lots of times.

Is it a huge consideration?
No, but it's a consideration nonetheless.


So the Melta Crusader is more powerful than the 4+ 2 shots Crusader as one third of its hits will be Macro Weapons, and it also has a not-insignificant chance of getting 3 hits (one of which is Macro, heh!).

he Redeemer isn't supposed to be unloading troops straight into comabat as much

Yes it is, it has the same Assault upgrades as a Land Raider Crusader by default in 40k, and its weapons are even shorter ranged (thus requiring you even moreso to get up close and personal).




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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:23 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 17 Jun. 2009, 15:09 )

Manage 3 Engagements or Support Fire actions, and likelyhood approaches highly probable instead of highly unlikely. Certainly I've seen single Crusaders roll 3 hits lots of times.

But over those games the 2x4+ will have done on average exactly the same number of hits. Having 3x5+ just makes it more variable, so crap more and better more.

So the Melta Crusader is more powerful than the 4+ 2 shots Crusader as one third of its hits will be Macro Weapons, and it also has a not-insignificant chance of getting 3 hits (one of which is Macro, heh!).

And I showed above the likelyhood of those hits and the resulting extra kills.

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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:25 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 17 Jun. 2009, 15:04 )

I think as a consumable miunition that presumably has a wieght and therefir increased strain on the machine etc etc it would be used, but only on things likely to end up at point blank range. It should at least be on the Crusader as its an assault weapon. The Redeemer isn't supposed to be unloading troops straight into comabat as much, so wouldn't need it in the same way.

Not an offensive weapon, but a 'point-blank' defensive weapon, designed to clear the hull of infantry etc. Looking a bit like a modern smoke launcher and hence something that could be attached to every LR (for game consistency if nothing else).

On the maths and stats, at 3x FF5+ attacks the LRC will obviously be three times better than a conventional LR (or any other variant for that matter). Given the enhanced transport capacity and that upgrades are cheaper than the separate formation, this makes the LRC upgrade a 'no-brainer' over the other variants, which seems to be a little silly doesn't it (or am I missing something here?).

I was suggesting a slightly different approach aimed at balancing the two variants a little better while aiming at consistency across all LR variants. Equalizing the assault capability on both tanks brings out the real diferentiator, which is that the LRR shoots better while the LRC carries more people (so is a cheaper transport upgrade).

However, as TRC points out, we are only talking about four Land Raiders in the normal Marines army, so +/- 0.125% on a few dice is not going to make a huge difference.

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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:28 pm 
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at 3x FF5+ attacks the LRC will obviously be three times better than a conventional LR


Let's say four times better, as one shot is a Macro-Weapon.

am I missing something here?

Nope you're not missing anything, the 3x shot LRC is really really good.

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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:52 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 17 Jun. 2009, 15:09 )

Hmm, stats fail here?

4 in 108 (if your maths is right, I haven't checked it) is 1 in 27. Assuming you have 4 Land Raider Crusaders and they conduct an engagement (divide 27 by 4), one of those Crusaders will roll 3 hits 1 in 6.75 times, not insignificant, and likely to occur in 1-in-3 games if the Crusaders manage just two engagements (or Support Fire actions!) during the entire game.

While this is technically true (and the math is correct), it's also true that the chances of 0 hits are greater as well.  They can top out higher, but they can also fail more spectacularly.  As Chris said, more variable.


Personally, I don't think MW is 2x as good as normal fire.  It is only 2x as good if it hits 4+/4+RA targets.  You cannot always target those high-save units.  Against 5+ it's 1.5x.  Against 6+ it's 1.2x and with no save it is of no benefit.

Overall, I put MW somewhere in 1.5-1.75x as good but I usually use 1.5x for judging overall power.

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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:45 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 17 Jun. 2009, 16:25 )

Not an offensive weapon, but a 'point-blank' defensive weapon, designed to clear the hull of infantry etc. Looking a bit like a modern smoke launcher and hence something that could be attached to every LR (for game consistency if nothing else).

Actually I've thought of it like the US in barbaric times gone by slapping AP mines or even claymore over a tank for street clearance.

On the maths and stats, at 3x FF5+ attacks the LRC will obviously be three times better than a conventional LR (or any other variant for that matter). Given the enhanced transport capacity and that upgrades are cheaper than the separate formation, this makes the LRC upgrade a 'no-brainer' over the other variants, which seems to be a little silly doesn't it (or am I missing something here?).

Equalizing the assault capability on both tanks brings out the real diferentiator, which is that the LRR shoots better while the LRC carries more people (so is a cheaper transport upgrade).


Crusaders come down to transport and only transport. If you want to carry 2 stands of terminators or 3 marines in a tough tank its always the crusader. It could have no weapons, people would still take it. If you want firepower you get something else.

Really their are 3 categories of Raider

Crusader. The 3 transport puts it in a league of its own.

Normal, Redeemer, whatever. All shooting, same tranport, have different targets and engagement ranges so choice influenced by other army choices, air transport etc etc. Should aim to be broadly balanced.

Helios. The above, but with more guns.

The Promethius would move between category 2 and 3 depending on how the rest of the list was for exploiting its ability (which I write as any unit in the same formation as the command tank - marine armour just needs a booster, you don't have to sit in front of a monitor, they are built in!).

However, as TRC points out, we are only talking about four Land Raiders in the normal Marines army, so +/- 0.125% on a few dice is not going to make a huge difference.

Yes, I like neal normally figure MW to be 1.5 time a normal shot, modified by the amount of other MW slots in the list.

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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:51 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 17 Jun. 2009, 17:45 )

Actually I've thought of it like the US in barbaric times gone by slapping AP mines or even claymore over a tank for street clearance.

So lets 'slap' these counter-measures over all the Land Raider variants and give everything CC5+. After all, the Marines have an aversion to losing tanks to mobs  :laugh:

Crusaders come down to transport and only transport. If you want to carry 2 stands of terminators or 3 marines in a tough tank its always the crusader. It could have no weapons, people would still take it. If you want firepower you get something else.

Really their are 3 categories of Raider

Crusader. The 3 transport puts it in a league of its own.
I only partially agree here. If you go with Crusaders you lose out on shooting and IMHO there should not be a huge compensation in FF; so I would really prefer to give both LRC and LRR only 2x FF5+ dice. This way, the player can start to make choices over whether to go with the 'cheap transport' option for 150; or the 'Better resiliance and shooting' option for +75 points

Normal, Redeemer, whatever. All shooting, same tranport, have different targets and engagement ranges so choice influenced by other army choices, air transport etc etc. Should aim to be broadly balanced. QFT - apart from the Terminus and Ares, TRC is spot on here; and IMHO this is broadly achievable as well. Apart from the quirky Helios and the LRC, the other variants provide different roles in assault and shooting which is really quite appropriate given the way the Marines are supposed to fight. :agree:

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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:01 pm 
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We've playtested the 3x 5+ (one MW) Land Raider a whole bunch, and it's too good.

I've also playtested it and it's fine in my list. Not saying you're wrong about whichever list you're talking about, but context matters.

I think the various roles are pertinent:

Land Raider - battle tank / transport. Dual role, long ranged fire support and modest assault transport.

Land Raider Crusader - assault tank. Provides large volume of medium range fire support and superb assault transport capability.

Land Raider Redeemer - line breaker. Provides point-blank fire for clearing trenches and bunkers. Good assault transport.

Really, if we have a pure firefight tank it should be the redeemer. The proposed stats that give the redeemer more ranged fire than the crusader are downright weird. Of course, part of the problem is the outright bizarre statistics attributed to the heavy flamer. Why does it have a 15cm range? It should be only a firefight bonus of some kind - or even a close combat attack.

So I think the redeemer should have superior firefight capabilities to the crusader but less ranged potential.

One other point. I thought the regular Land Raider was changed to FF4+. Did that change not happen? It's important for comparisons.





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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Generally it seems netepic at 85 points FF4+, EpicUK (where many of us play) 75 points FF5+.

See other posts for consequences of a tank with lots of short ranged fire and high assault ability (a clue is the word air).

Personally I think in sheer volume of fire the crusader should be superior in a firefight as I clearly rate hurricane bolters more highly than others (must be those electric stacked ammo gun things I've seen videos of). Though the Redeemer should have its hits have more bite (MW/IC). So horde of troops mown down by crusader, specific bolt holes flamed and melta'd by the redeemer (in practical terms MWFF4+ vs 3xFF5+ with or without one being MW).

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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:45 pm 
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Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 17 Jun. 2009, 20:01 )

I think the various roles are pertinent:

Land Raider - battle tank / transport. Dual role, long ranged fire support and modest assault transport.

Land Raider Crusader - assault tank. Provides large volume of medium range fire support and superb assault transport capability.

Land Raider Redeemer - line breaker. Provides point-blank fire for clearing trenches and bunkers. Good assault transport.

Really, if we have a pure firefight tank it should be the redeemer. The proposed stats that give the redeemer more ranged fire than the crusader are downright weird. Of course, part of the problem is the outright bizarre statistics attributed to the heavy flamer. Why does it have a 15cm range? It should be only a firefight bonus of some kind - or even a close combat attack.

So I think the redeemer should have superior firefight capabilities to the crusader but less ranged potential.

Indeed.

I think a good set of stats might be:

- Land Raider, as-is.
- Land Raider Crusader, 3 transport slots, 2x 4+ Firefight attacks, 1x Twin Assault Cannon.
- Land Raider Redeemer, 2 transport slots, 2x 3+ Firefight attacks, 1x Twin Assault Cannon.


That doesn't make the redeemer a particularly exciting choice however.

One other point. I thought the regular Land Raider was changed to FF4+. Did that change not happen? It's important for comparisons.

Yes I believe the ERC is still in favour of this change.

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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:51 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 17 Jun. 2009, 22:45 )

- Land Raider Redeemer, 2 transport slots, 2x 3+ Firefight attacks, 1x Twin Assault Cannon.

Hm, so add a Librarian and air insert.

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 Post subject: Fixing land raiders - not costing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:55 pm 
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I'd like to see 3xFF4+ on the redeemer, with 2 of them ignoring cover if the rules for that get cleared up. Either that or the 2x15cm AP3+, either is fine with me as long as the crusader loses the Melta.

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