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Black Legion playtest changes

 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:01 pm 
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And that won't be the last time GW advertised the pack sizes incorrectly :laugh:  - the Phoenixes definitely come in packs of two while the nightwings are three.

Note, the following comments are based on gut-feel rather than games.

On factions and Daemons I have mixed views. The original effect was generally to restrict people a two faction army (with undivided bits as well), the factions being chosen for the Daemons that could be used in particular circumstances. Removing the "hated factions" rule is a simplification that allows greater use of the different Daemons (quite apart from allowing more Daemon Princes). An equally simple adjustment that I would prefer would have been to require a player to choose any two of the four factions and leave it at that. I do like the different daemons as they add both colour and a little thought to the game, but can see why people might want to revert to the bland 'generic' Daemon.

Obliterators despite losing AA, are still good for 85 points as they have Fearless, invulnerable save, an extra shot and an extra FF over the terminators despite having slightly weaker FF and CC stats. So I agree about the caution on reducing their costing to 75 points.

With the significant stats reductions combined with competition for other formations in the aerospace and Titans list, 200 points for the Hell Talons feels about right. On the HellBlades, I suspect that formations of three are a bit OTT for 200 points, and worse they are similar in effect to the Hell Talons and much better than Swiftdeaths (which I presume are still in?). I would suggest 150 for two Hell Blades would be better

I understand the dilema over AA between the Desecrator and the Stalker. However I do wonder about the 4x 6+AA capability and whether that might be a little too good - why not 2x 5+AA as Hydra?

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:04 pm 
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Swiftdeaths...I presume are still in?


No they're dead. They should have been replaced with Hellblades as soon as FW put out the model, but for reasons we won't go into the Chaos list began stagnating about the same time as they were released.


Hellblades are definitely brilliant, I'd consider bumping them to 225pts.




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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:32 pm 
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Sorry, but HellBlades are definitely not worth an extra 25 points considering their 15cm range and limited AT fire.

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:56 pm 
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Quote: (Irondeath @ 10 Jun. 2009, 10:31 )

- Defilers (and Desecrators): Tried them a couple of times in mixed Armoured Companies, they are fire magnets and would be even in a dedicated formation, that´s just the way it is with expensive AVs that can be suppressed with a one BM, the only way to make a viable formation here is to add Leader somewhere

You haven't seen Tim's Chaos armour list, tis a terrifying beast.

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:08 pm 
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Hellfighters. I still prefer twin reapers, no armour and 3 for 150. Chaos swarm!

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:16 pm 
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Not sure I'd agree here ID. The formation kicks out 6x AA5+ and 3x AP4+ which is as good as Nightwings. And I am not sure that the reduced AT fire, armour and range is worth the 100 points difference.  

Part of the issue with aircraft as a whole is the altered game mechanics from the rest of the game, which means that air formations do not break. Consequently they will complete their CAP mission despite defensive AA, which is usually limited to a single shot. This is like TBolts getting an unopposed shot at their target.

Furthermore, given the other formations competing for position in Titan Aerospace section, I would have thought that a 150 point formation would be more acceptable than a 200+ formation

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:44 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 10 Jun. 2009, 18:56 )

You haven't seen Tim's Chaos armour list, tis a terrifying beast.

Link? Comments on tactics?

I´ve yet to find a way to make BL armour formations workable, they either die like flies due to 4+ saves (Predators and Vindicators) or get buried under BM (Land Raiders). Successful use necessitates some stalling in my experience, moving up the armour as late as possible in one turn and shooting the next before they get BMed, which is difficult to achieve in the BL context which tends to be one of the armies with fewer activations than most.

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:55 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 10 Jun. 2009, 19:16 )

Not sure I'd agree here ID. The formation kicks out 6x AA5+ and 3x AP4+ which is as good as Nightwings. And I am not sure that the reduced AT fire, armour and range is worth the 100 points difference.  

Part of the issue with aircraft as a whole is the altered game mechanics from the rest of the game, which means that air formations do not break. Consequently they will complete their CAP mission despite defensive AA, which is usually limited to a single shot. This is like TBolts getting an unopposed shot at their target.

Furthermore, given the other formations competing for position in Titan Aerospace section, I would have thought that a 150 point formation would be more acceptable than a 200+ formation

Nightwings have 30cm and Lance, the much-feared bane of air transports, and a pretty decent save to boot. Easily worth the difference, easily!

225 puts them on par with T-Bolts, which have AP4+ AP5+/AT6+ and AT4+ and 2x AA4+ as well, one of these @30cms. IMO the longer range makes quite a difference, especially in the context of your claim that "they will complete their CAP mission despite defensive AA, which is usually limited to a single shot", which is the opposite of my experience.

Overlapping Flak cover is commonplace, unavoidable with 15cm range, and HellBlades are usually limited to picking off isolated formations or one-way missions when doing ground attacks.

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:31 pm 
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What Tim are we talking about?

Also, since you seem to know him better, couldn´t you just point him towards this thread?
:smile:

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:30 pm 
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Edit, it was his tournament list.
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....8;st=75
He came 4th.
I think he mentions it somewhere else as well.




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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:04 pm 
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Tim's list that Chris is talking about can be seen here

Epic-UK Championship Open War XI Tim's list


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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:29 pm 
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Thanks guys.

Am I correct in assuming that the list was using the old MW-IC Ferals?

That said, I really had no luck at all using those small Land Raider formations.
Nonetheless, making an almost all-AT target list could have happened to me...
:;):

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:33 pm 
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Yes EpicUK use the unchanged Pixelgeek Black Legion army list.

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:26 am 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 11 Jun. 2009, 03:01 )

And that won't be the last time GW advertised the pack sizes incorrectly :laugh:  - the Phoenixes definitely come in packs of two while the nightwings are three.

?? My friend got a pack of phoenix last year and it had 3 models in it definitely.  From UK online store, I ordered it and saw it myself.




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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:34 am 
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Quote: (Markconz @ 11 Jun. 2009, 00:26 )

Quote: (Ginger @ 11 Jun. 2009, 03:01 )

And that won't be the last time GW advertised the pack sizes incorrectly :laugh:  - the Phoenixes definitely come in packs of two while the nightwings are three.

GW Phoenixes - three planes per pack

FW Phoenixes - two planes per pack

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