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Tyranids vs Marines - our findings

 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:15 am 
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The current list is strongly worked around the ability to drop stuff from orbit or fly it in. The Imperial Fists variant list is the opposite (well as much as can be) and the Salamanders list occupies a sort of middle ground, though you most likely still want air in some form or other. Remember that any chapter can use any 'codex chapter' list as they are operational differences which a chapter could adopt to combat any given foe.
So if you really really want to go toe to toe against Nids I suggest Salamanders. Tougher but slower with potentially bigger formations but the firepower is slightly shorter ranged than with regular marines. You will still get butchered the first time but the second time if you stick to limited assaults, engaging just the front/side of a formation and not its depth you will have a lot more success.

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 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 12:04 pm 
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If I was playing competativley all the time I would not hesitate to take an Air Assault list. However, playing friendly games amogst friends we dont like using the same types of lists over and over. For this reason I would use GROOV3R's mods amogst my friends, but would not advocate 'tournament' modifications.
Yes, the same can be achieved by writting scenarios with already selected armies - but this appears to be a 'quick and dirty' way of getting a Marine 'ground pounder' army that is worth playing...

I get how Marines are 'meant' to function (all being equal), but it would be nice to use the Tanks I have painted once in a while  :sad:





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 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:08 pm 
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GR00V3R: Would you ever consider taking a Marines force with no air transport and no drop pods to a tournament?
Steve54: But why would you want people to do that? - that is how SM fight.

I think that's indicative of the problem - Space Marines are so prevalently used this way in epic people assume it's how they always choose or are able to fight, but that's not the case. In W40k an all foot and vehicle army functions perfectly fine and is commonly taken, but similar translated to epic does poorly.

There can be plenty of situations which are described in the background or which can be imagined where the Marines are already on the ground fighting and do not have air support during that battle. Some chapters may field less thunderhawks - either standardly not having/using as many, or because a lot of their available ones have been destroyed by anti-air or space combat and those remaining few kept for ferrying troops a way away for the enemy, rather than flying into hot battle-zones. Also the Marines orbiting spacecraft could be under heavy attack or have been destroyed, or forced to disengage. Two obvious iconic examples of this sort of situation would be the battle for the Emperor's Palace in the Horus Heresy and the Ultrarines defence of their polar fortress against the Tyranids - these are both siege-like situations, but the same could just as well happen to a marine force in open battle too.

In epic I wouldn't want all ground marine armies to suddenly become a better or even as equally playable choice than one taking air, I just want them to be more playbable than the poor choices they are now for those that choose to use them. Making the mostly un-used units a bit more playable should be a goal of list balancing and helps add more variety to the armies and games. Yes without the ability to hit our opponents baseline they will struggle and never be truly competitive, as Hena, said, but some people like to play that kind of style some or all the time, I often theme my armies to particular background ideas and do and don't take units that fit with that.

I don't think a comeback of 'everyday unit x is rubbish in the marine list, but don't worry! - we're not going to fix it, because we have a variant list for xyz chapter in which it becomes ok' to be a valid or fair line of thinking; I have nothing against the variant Marine lists (and it's cool that they exist!) but not everyone wants to use them and the problem is more general. I think the standard Marine list should be balanced for a selection of standard types of space marine arm; I seriously doubt Jervis intended the standard list to be so biased toward having to rely on taking air to be competitive.

A lot of playtesting would need to get them balance, but a few changes along the general give and take sort of line suggested by the likes of Groover and E&C and others would be a very good thing IMO. Even if as a set of balanced 'fan mods' if Hena is dead set against them could be good, though I think the Net-EA should be aimed at better reflecting / better allowing to be more competitive other sorts of Marine armies. Hmm long post. I am too tired to be motivated to work much at work today.





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 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:12 pm 
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I seriously doubt Jervis intended the standard list to be so biased toward having to rely on taking air to be competitive.


No, he intended to Codex Marine list to be equally competative on the ground and in the air.

Even if as a set of balanced 'fan mods' if Hena is dead set against them could be good, though I think the Net-EA should be aimed at better reflecting / better allowing to be more competitive other sorts of Marine armies.

I also think that the changes I propose will go a long way towards fixing the ground based list, whilst leaving the airborne list almost entirely unaffected.

Hena is dead set against changing it though and would prefer you play the Scions of Iron army list for ground-based play.

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 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:16 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 29 May 2009, 15:12 )

I also think that the changes I propose will go a long way towards fixing the ground based list, whilst leaving the airborne list almost entirely unaffected.

E&C, why don't you put together and post a "ground pounder" combined arms Marine list that drops some of the air elements, utilizing your proposals?

I'd certainly like to see that.

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 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:34 pm 
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Isn't it called Blood Angels? :grin:


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 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Just for clarification, maybe I am reading Hena's post a little differently.

I understood that a SM chapter was individual and could function as such, whether it be ground or air assault, and has the equipment and training to do so. Every chapter has this capability but also their own specialities, so Imperial Fists specialise as siege breakers  :D , salamanders are close in ground fire-based-assault  :devil:  etc. They are more likely to be chosen for a role suiting their speciality, but this is not guaranteed. Hence the complaints that the standard marine list is not suitably capable at ground based assaults.

However, if every chapter could feasibly field any army fielded by any other chapter, is this argument moot? Ultramarines could field an army of bikes if they wanted because surely they would have the capability and equipment. Likewise salamanders could act as seige breakers a la Imperial Fists. You could argue that the specialisations preclude their use in such unfamiliar roles, however I could arge that they have the equipment to hand, and the unfamiliarity of the commanders to the new tactics would be adequately represented by the player controlling the marine army in a new scenario.

Therefore the different chapter lists on the boards are all 'vanilla' marine lists, just renamed for character to suit the specialist chapters that use the various 'extreme' lists (apart from maybe Space Wolves). Occasionally there are the occasional chapter specific special rule (e.g. skill as bikers allow rerolled dangerous terrain tests), but are these changes the only differences between all the chapters, or am I missing some?

However, I see no problem with running Chapter X using any marine list, minus maybe the specialist rules, as they should all be able to do it all. I think the standard list is perfectly valid as a list and I have never faced it with more than two thunderhawks. However I concede that some of the tank stats are unpopular.

This may have been suggested before and thrown away after previous deliberation. If so I apologise  :vo . Why not create one marine list, with constant unit stats across the board. Then treat every chapter as a series of add-ons along the same idea lines as the 'major and minor traits thing' in 40k (do they still even do that, haven't played 40k in ages), or the nid weapons increasing a stat value idea? The traits could be organisational, or the occasional special rule, but all based on consistent unit stats. We could define some preset combinations of traits for the more wellknown chapters, or let players make up their own. With careful planning it may be possible to ensure that different combinations of traits are not overpowered.

That way all the space marine chapters could be printed in a handful of pages. Easy book.


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 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:07 pm 
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Well, technically it isn't the 'standard Marine list'- it's a Codex Astartes list during the 3rd Armageddon war.
Just as the 'standard Guard list' is actually a Steel Legion Mechanised army from 3rd Armageddon war.


Trying to cram every variety of Space Marine army from Air Assault, to Ground Pounder, Siege, etc, etc into one balanced list is doomed to fail. You will constantly be re-pointing units to try to make everything worth taking.


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 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:15 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 29 May 2009, 15:16 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 29 May 2009, 15:12 )

I also think that the changes I propose will go a long way towards fixing the ground based list, whilst leaving the airborne list almost entirely unaffected.

E&C, why don't you put together and post a "ground pounder" combined arms Marine list that drops some of the air elements, utilizing your proposals?

I'd certainly like to see that.

Done: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y315079

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 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:21 pm 
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I'm defining an air assault list as any list that relies on multiple units engaging by air or planetfall using retain actions and teleports to maximize formations focused on a single point in the enemy lines as it's primary means of attack.

I'm not convinced that a lot of point changes are in order to make the list work as a ground army as well as an air assault army. Since it seems that marines rely on engage actions to be most effective as shown by the extensive reliance on Air assault, I think the better route would be to find a way to give that capability to ground based marines.

The primary function of the air assault is that it allows for a basically unlimited engagement/supporting fire range with up to 6 formations (2 thunderhawks, 2 Dev detachments, and 2 assault detachments)or more, if you include the teleport of a terminator detachment as well, focused on a single point granting them local superiority to crack open a key point of an enemy line.

This ability to mass engage anywhere of your choosing seems to be what the ground version of marines lacks mainly due to the Epic core rules. I say this because, despite being capable of a triple move of 90cm, ground based marines can't engage the turn they are in position like their air assaulting brothers because if the ground troops take the engage action it only grants the formation a single move (in the case of embarked in rhinos, 30cm). This makes it exponentially more difficult to predict where the key enemy formations will be by turn two so that you can use the commander ability to mass engage your ground troops and time the arrival of teleports compared to the air assaulting or planetfalling thunderhawks.

What I'm getting at is that, a few select units utility notwithstanding (like increase vindis to 30cm moves), all that I see the marine list might need to make a ground version competitive is the ability to engage at the end of any double or triple move if they desire to give them the flexibility to use ground options without changing the army's focus on engagement.

While I've not though through the full implications of such a change, I think it would foucs ground based marines on upgraded formations that hit harder and are more durable (more units and armor) with shorter reach and air assault with longer reach and flexibility but not hitting quite so hard.




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 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:21 pm 
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Moved to the "All Arms" thread.




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 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:35 pm 
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This is annoying. All say that air assault list is only thing that works, yet none seem to be willing to say their definition to it. Almost all Ork lists that I see have Landa. Many Eldar (non Ulthwe) have Vampire. Are they then automatically air assault lists?


I think this is a "I know it when I see it"-type definition, but Vaaish does a good job.

Including a flyer does not make it an Air Assault list - reliance on it as a main portion of your battle plan does make it an Air Assault list (with other list choices geared towards that plan) - I cannot give a more concerete definition than this, I am afraid.

My 'ground pounder' list would still probably include a T.hawk or some teleporting terminators, but I would like to field a few tactical/dev detachments in rhinos with some pred and vindicator support or something like that (tank formations just look nice on the board  :smile: ).

Will check out the Scions list.
I dont know how to make this work, but I would like to field it without getting steamrollered by the end of turn 2.





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 Post subject: Tyranids vs Marines - our findings
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 6:35 pm 
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What I'm getting at is that, a few select units utility notwithstanding (like increase vindis to 30cm moves), all that I see the marine list might need to make a ground version competitive is the ability to engage at the end of any double or triple move if they desire to give them the flexibility to use ground options without changing the army's focus on engagement.


So basically give ALL Space Marine ground units Infiltrators?

For the record: I played a all droppod/air-assault army in a turney and won 2 outstanding out of 4 games. The other 2 i lost severely.

In my regulatr games i field a usually a ground based Salamanders force with one Thunderhalwk and/or one or two detachments in drop-pods. Most of the games i play against Codex Space Marines who usually have at least 2 Land Speeder detachments and/or 1-2 additional Bike detachments and  1-2 Scout detachments backed up with Assault and Tactical Detachments, sometimes Terminators too, with no aircraft whatsoever and a maximum of 3 Hunters (usually only one!).
In ca 90% of the games i lost.

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