This is cross posted from the Specialist Games forum (now I have posting rights here) - the original thread is here, http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/foru ... opic=218.0
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Greetings,

We have been playing a few games of Marines (codex) vs Tyranids (9.2.1) and we have some comments and request some suggestions, please.

Our currently feeling is that either Marines are hugely underpowered or Tyranids are hugely overpowered (and suspect it is actually a little of both). In one game the Marines were pretty much destroyed by the end of turn 2 and in another they were destroyed by two activations into turn 2.

Here is the lists we used for last nights game (3000 points).

Marines:
Landspeeder Tornado
Terminators + Chaplain
Tactical + 2 Dred + Librarian (garrison)
Devastators + Landraiders
Devastators + Razorbacks
Reaver Titan
Whirlwinds
Scouts

Tyranids (iirc):
Dominatrix + 2Trygons + guants
3 Hive Tyrants + 2guants + 3Carnifex
3 Tyranid Warriors + 3 Hauruspex + 2guants
HIve Tyrant + Tyranid Warriors + 2guants + 3malefactors
Harridan +2gargoyles
Genestealers
Lictors

Comments on Marines:
They sem to suffer from 'first army' syndrome in the fact that they have none of the nice toys that 'later' lists get - MW and RA creep seems to be out of hand with the 'newer' ERC lists that are comming out and MArines REALLY suffer for it, imo. Their tanks are all massivley expensive compared to other races (and underpowered) to the point where they are not worth considering in most circumstances (why would you ever take Predators or Vindicators?!), they get very few reinforced armour or MW attacks to be able to fight the Nids with (shoot the big stuff is all well and good but its all RA! and the Nids have a fair few MWs to hit you back with) and standard Marine tactics of being able to strike where you want is not really all that great against Nids because you get assaulted by massive broods vs your 4 to 6 stands of Marines.
Marines have come off the worst in 9/10 assaults fought and getting enough AT shots to be able to ignore the Gaunts and hit the big stuff is a difficult task to say the least when there are RA Tyranid 'tanks' in the broods to soak it up with.
I am at a loss as to what Marines are mean to do against Tyranids (though they do not fair that well against Guard either). We have considered an across the board reduction in points for Marines so they you have more of them on board (a c.25-50point reduction in the detachments was suggested).

Comments on Tyranids:
This list gets a hell of a lot of models for the points (too cheap). The fact that the Synapse can be REALLY effectivly screened by RA biggies (that can respawn) makes them very difficult to get to. They are massively fast - 40cm assaults is huge (guants/genestealers). Some things seem to have a lot of MW attacks that most of the time cut the marines down to a man (6 stands vs one of those broods). The WE in particulr appear to be quite cheap considering the amount of damage they can soak (the 'scout' bio-titan at 275pts is a steal!).
Overall, the Tyranids appear to have little weaknesses - considering that AP fire is almost useless against them and you need AT fire to kill the synapse stuff (getting through the RA tanks first) means the amount of shots a Tyranid army recieves is small compared to other armies - less AT shots in an army, harder to hit AT shots, RA armour saves; all compound so you do minimal damage to a brood.
It is also our feeling that the big stuff should not be 'brood' creatures (by the lists definition) - being able to spawn them and them not counting for BMs (these being brood creatures detracts from the 'Tyranid Swarm' feel that there should be tons of little creatures overwealming you and you need to shoot big stuff so staunch them).

Any comments or suggestions would be helpful as, at the moment, it seems a pointless match-up between these armies.
We are trying IG vs Nids next week so we will see if it is Nids or Marines at fault (but as said, we believe it is both).

Thanks

Interesting post, mate. I think you have some good points. I'll be interested to see what some of the "old pros" here think.

Marines have a steep learning curve. Learning to use them well takes quite a few games and realization of some advanced tactics (clipping assaults, and support being a couple examples).

Once more, ground pounding marines are very difficult to play. My best advice to you if that's the army you want to field is to keep your activation count high and rely heavily on bikes and land speeders. Otherwise, air assaulting marines or drop pod deployments are where the army really shines.

Against Tyranids, you're going to want to engage in FF assaults where relatively few units from a huge formation can attack you. That ought to help you break the swarms. Using Land Speeders to stay within 30cm of broken Tyranids is great as well. For one, it will make rallying them more difficult and will cut their spawning in half.

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Squats 2019-10-17

I should add as a disclaimer that none of our group are 'tournament'-type players, we just want some interesting and resonably balanced games with varied armies; that is the position from which my comments are made (and a position that, imo, is just as valid as any other).
I acknowledge that Marines may not be able to provide that (from comments made on the SG forum and now here), but I would suggest that that is a huge failing in the design of the Marines, then? And there is still the (perceived?) problem of RA and MW creep in (most of) the 'newer' lists. And if 'ground pounding' MArines are not really a viable option, then is there not something wrong with the points of those units? Perhapse a reduction in the cost of Marines, but you have to pay points for Drop Pods?
I have used the airbourne assault army (even had an army where nothing was set up on the board once) and I like it but would like to try some different things.
By 'assault clipping' you mean engaging at the edge of range so they cannot counter charge into CC?

I'd echo Dave here, and also ask how many small fry (gaunts) were in each brood?

Several thoughts on Strategy and Tactics:-
Realise that the 'Nid strategy is generally to occupy the centre of the table with something defending the rear / Blitz. Tyranids are fairly slow; so put the objectives fairly far apart, but towards the halfway point in the table. This will position the enemy where you want to shoot them, and also cause the enemy to spread out a bit.

Now try to use your superior mobility to concentrate on one part of the 'Nids and destroy it in detail. I would keep the Reaver towards the BTS where it can shoot / support FireFights when they occur, but can stay relatively far from the swarms.

As Hena says, set up crossfire to reduce the RA saves. If you fear the GeneStealers, shoot / assault them first. Always try to initiate assaults as you can then control how they will happen. Eg Lictors have horrendous CC stats - but cannot shoot or FF at all: so you need to assault them ending up outside 10 cm from the target.

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The standard marine list is really an air assault list; that's the only way it really works. For a better ground-pounding marine list try the white scars (bikes, speed!) or the black templars (Marine horde!).

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It seems to me that the core of his frustration with the Codex Marines army list is that, for a force that relies on its flexibility to counter its small-numbers disadvantage, it really is not a very flexible list. Detachment structure is decidedly inflexible. Steel Legion companies are far more flexible, for example.

I'll admit that I share this frustration. I would like to see the ability to bolster Marine detachments in a similar fashion, such as an ability to add up to two Predators to infantry formations, and to replace Rhinos with Land Raiders. A pet love of mine would be to have Dreadnaught-only detachments available (say, four Dreads) with a drop pod transport option. I would also like to see Vindicators being faster, and all armoured formations about 25-50pts cheaper.

With changes like those, I would actually be tempted to occasionally play a "ground pounder" force.

I might ask my mates to help me playtest...  

Hmm, may I add that two good players in my group use marines, predominantly ground pounder lists, and that I've had a very tough time beating them with Steel Legion (in fact I haven't in last 5 games using a variety of configurations...).

Tactically they are aggressive but position carefully, and have lots of formations. One player tends to use 2-3 Landraider detachments, the other 2-4 Lanspeeder detachments, a single formation of terminators each, but rest is tacs, assault, whirlwinds etc. One has used a T-hawk with assault marines once. Both sometimes use Warhounds. Always take a supreme commander.

Make sure you are using the recommended 12 pieces of scenery on the table as marines can really use this to 'divide and conquer' the enemy army in detail.

Not so sure on the Tyranid aspect though, as haven't used the Nid list for a while.

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From tourney results Marine have generally been shown to be the strongest army - the key seems to be the balance between air assaults and supporting units. Recently the most succesful marine lists have used 2 thawks with various loads, 2 warhounds, tbolts and then a variety of units - often including scouts. The aim being to initially out activate the opponent so after the 2 air assaults have gone in then one of them can be picked up again by an empty thunderhawk.

Marines have the  advantage of thawks, good FF, BM bonuses and inspiring characters against nids

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Marconz, do you use 'Rulebook' Marines groundpounder or your Handbook/ERC recommendations list?
If its your Handbook list then that appears to be a little more reasonable at groundpounder (though Landraiders used as MBTs are still nowhere near as good value as Leman Russ and Preds and Vindicators are still over priced, imo).
But the general consensus seems to be that Marines are an Airbourne list and anything else you better know the game inside out or you will have a VERY hard time - not looking good for the Emperors finest that (in the fluff) excell at tactical flexibility (woe betide those Marines that find themselves in a situation denied of air support...)

(As this has quickly become a Marine thread, perhaps Mods could move it?)

I should also point out that TacCom has come up with some "house rules":

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 69;t=13201

The Marine tanks received  some point reductions. You could try with these if you like. Also, the 2008 errata added some changes that helped out the Marines. Are you using those?

Whether you consider yourself a tournament player or not is irrelevant given you're using the tournament lists.    But, are you guys new players? If so, there could still be some rule interpretations that might be making it more difficult for the marines.

Case and point, when I first started playing I didn't play the And They Shall Know No Fear rule correctly. I thought that in a formation of 4 Predators, 2 would be suppressed if I had 4 blast markers. I never thought to apply the BMs front to back and only start doubling them up on (and suppressing) marine units when I had more BMs than the number of units left in the formation. That little change alone really helped out my marine fire power.

On your questions. Drop pods are free. You can either take them, rhinos or nothing at all. But you must decide at the beginning of the game before you see your opponent's force.

On the clipping assault, yes that's the idea. However, take that one step further and make it so you are engaging only a portion of a larger formation. Think of it as flanking. That way, it can't bring it's full firepower to bear on you. Make sure the target formation has atleast 1 BM and your engaging formation has none and you're already going in with a +2 advantage. Get some formations in support before hand (enfilade fire) and watch the big formation crumble.

Speeders are great for this against nids, and also great for setting up crossfires.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

I can move this to the Marine section, but I'd still like to hear and discuss your thoughts on the Tyranids in this forum.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

According to the UK tournaments, the Black Legion convincingly ruled the roost in 2008, with Codex Marines placing second.
In 2007 they placed fifth, and only in 2006 first.

I guess there could be a tendancy for noobs to the tournament circuit to take Codex Marines though, so that may depress their numbers somewhat?

Also other countries seem to have had different experiences with Marines to the UK tournament circuit.


Landspeeder Tornado
Terminators + Chaplain
Tactical + 2 Dred + Librarian (garrison)
Devastators + Landraiders
Devastators + Razorbacks
Reaver Titan
Whirlwinds
Scouts

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Moved to Marines... but would like to see Tyranid stuff still discussed in the Tyranid forum.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

I guess there could be a tendancy for noobs to the tournament circuit to take Codex Marines though, so that may depress their numbers somewhat?