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Stubborn development thread

 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 11:16 pm 
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Then why the need for a Special Rule at all?

Certainly, why *this* Special Rule?

What is this Special Rule supposed to achieve for the army?




Right now all it achieves is making the Squats very good in Engagements. Does this match their background?
Are they really more reliable in CC/FF situations than the Emperor's finest, the Space Marines?

Jervis gave the advice that Special Rules should be carefully avoided if at all possible.




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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 11:53 pm 
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Personally I see "Stubborn" as a sort of halfway-house to fearless, which is why I like the "save against hackdown hits" version, since it's literally a weakened version of the current fearless rule.

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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 12:27 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 25 May 2009, 23:53 )

Personally I see "Stubborn" as a sort of halfway-house to fearless, which is why I like the "save against hackdown hits" version, since it's literally a weakened version of the current fearless rule.

no one would find you inconsistant in your opinion  :))

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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 1:05 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 25 May 2009, 23:16 )

Then why the need for a Special Rule at all?

Certainly, why *this* Special Rule?

What is this Special Rule supposed to achieve for the army?




Right now all it achieves is making the Squats very good in Engagements. Does this match their background?
Are they really more reliable in CC/FF situations than the Emperor's finest, the Space Marines?

Jervis gave the advice that Special Rules should be carefully avoided if at all possible.

1 - It is appropriate to have a rule that helps characterize the racial archetype.

2 - Stubborn is a long standing Sm/Epic/WH40K attribute for the Squats and now the Demiurg.

3 - Provide a means of characterizing the attribute Stubborn (determined and committed).

4 - In background and history they were effective in assaults and they still are.

5- In matches with Space Marines using the current Stubborn rules the Squats/Demiurg are an even match for Marines due mostly to formation sizes and number of attacks which offset the superior stats of the Marines. The special rules for both play a part, but in fact favor the Marines.

As far as what Jervis has said I won't dispute, but invoking him as a form of admonition is unnecessary.

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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 1:10 am 
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ePilgrim: can you humour us and post what you intend the Stubborn rule to reflect? I've read what you've posted before, but it doesn't answer the question. Is it meant to show dogged determination and refusal to flee, not qualing in the face of superior numbers, improved combat capabilities, inspiring fear in their enemies, etc?

I'll weigh in with my own opinion (again!) but it would really help to know what you want.

To my mind there are two main possibilities:

- Stubborn stops them from running away
- Stubborn helps them win fights





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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 1:22 am 
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The special rules for both play a part, but in fact favor the Marines.


Why?

All else being equal, with your Stubborn rule the Squats are more likely to win a tied combat against any other army in the game, from Marines to Tyranids.

Why does never giving up, never surrendering suddenly translate to wins Engagements more than other armies?

That's not 'Stubborn', that's 'Better at fighting'.

Are Squats really that much 'better at fighting' than Space Marines, Tyranids, Orks etc so as to justify a Special Rule to grant that ability?

Can't their expertise in Close Combat be conferred through good CC stats, and their 'Stubborn' nature be  represented in some manner that actually makes them never give up, never surrender* instead of having a rule that just makes them better than everybody else at fighting?


*Whether Zombocom's solution or another.

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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:01 am 
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Also of note is that the current rule helps them just as much when firefighting as when close-combatting, so definately doesn't achieve "good at close combat" as a design goal.

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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 4:03 am 
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Just a side note: I notice my suggestion is not included in the list of responses. Is it automatically dismissed?

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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 4:46 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 26 May 2009, 04:03 )

Just a side note: I notice my suggestion is not included in the list of responses. Is it automatically dismissed?

Which one?

I like the ruling as in the first post:
- count 1 less BM for assault resolution (minimum of 1)

The minimum of one would definitely take away the problem where both forces have 1 blast marker yet the squats are getting +2 to combat resolution. That just sucked.

I also agree with the belief that the stubborn rule should not allow squats to hit easier in an assault. Does not make sense. Frankly, I do not think stubborn should effect assaults resolution in any way.

-or-

I just had an idea. Hows this for a suggestion..


Stubborn - in Assault resolution a stubborn unit counts as twice as many units (2 per base) when working out number within a unit.

Word it better than that, however it displays the stubborn resolve that each stand is actually theoretically worth 2 to show this.

It does not make them any better in combat, however gives the POTENTIAL to gain the +1 or maybe the +2 without adding all the character models and the like which come with their own advantages...

A bit like the ATSKNF rule but a lot less hardy and best thing - no rules change needed to the book or the Squat list. Then you could take this as a guide for other areas of the game where Stubborn rears its head.

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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 5:23 am 
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I was going to suggest similar. I don't like the "counting double" mechanic too much though - that means you can get the outnumbering bonus when I outnumber you, which does seem weird. How about this:

Enemy formations that outnumber a Stubborn formation do not receive the +1 combat resolution bonus. Enemy formations that outnumber 2:1 still receive the additional +1 (so a formation that outnumbers by double the number of units would receive only +1 rather than +2 total).

So you don't get the outnumbering bonus when I outnumber you, but I don't get it either. You could do this as well as the "require more BM than units to break the formation" rule, potentially, to show their stubborness in the face of the enemy fire as well as assaults.





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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 6:22 am 
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Why this dogged rut of firefight/close combat?
Hasn't it been clearly shown that people quite plainly think that "good in CC" is better shown in FF/CC values and Stubborn elsewhere than combat resolution?

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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 6:42 am 
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Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 26 May 2009, 01:10 )

ePilgrim: can you humour us and post what you intend the Stubborn rule to reflect? I've read what you've posted before, but it doesn't answer the question. Is it meant to show dogged determination and refusal to flee, not qualing in the face of superior numbers, improved combat capabilities, inspiring fear in their enemies, etc?

Currently the special rule being tested is for “Stubbornâ€Â

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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 6:49 am 
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Quote: (Erik M @ 26 May 2009, 06:22 )

Why this dogged rut of firefight/close combat?
Hasn't it been clearly shown that people quite plainly think that "good in CC" is better shown in FF/CC values and Stubborn elsewhere than combat resolution?

The Squat/Demiurg unit profiles are not going to be changed, they are fine as is.

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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:11 am 
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And who said that they should be changed?
But thank you for letting us know what is adamant...

It's perspective that perhaps should be changed, not numbers.




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 Post subject: Stubborn development thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:50 am 
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Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 26 May 2009, 05:23 )

I was going to suggest similar. I don't like the "counting double" mechanic too much though - that means you can get the outnumbering bonus when I outnumber you, which does seem weird. How about this:

Enemy formations that outnumber a Stubborn formation do not receive the +1 combat resolution bonus. Enemy formations that outnumber 2:1 still receive the additional +1 (so a formation that outnumbers by double the number of units would receive only +1 rather than +2 total).

Oooooohh!

I like this one. It is better than mine and represents stubborn very well IMO

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