discussion and playtesting of "Stubborn" resumes...

Frogbear,

I am open to ideas, and so is Jaldon, that is why this thread was started. Keep in mind that we have been working on these lists for the better part of 4 years, with the dramatic step of combining the two lists last year after lots of playtests and reams of emails. We both have prior experience with rules development and a great (perhaps irrational) love of both Epic and the Squats dating back to thier debuts.

Stubborn is a defining trait for the Squats/Demiurg and we intend to represent it properly; we have tested many variations and will continue to do so until it feels like it works. Even after that it won't satisfy everyone.

In putting this special rule up as a seperate thread we have been able to draw on the combined experience, opinion and speculation of our fellow players, however, at present a lot of ideas are being posted again or rephrased without adding anything new to the discussion. When a topic hits a wall it has to be reviewed, in game terms: playtested.

Everyone who contributed to the discussion would be of most assistance in testing the rule Jaldon and I agreed on. Any feedback will further the discussion and is most welcome.

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

It seem as if none like Stubborn as it stands now, a combat resolution thing.
So perhaps there's a need to start over.

Personally I feel Stubborn is about not giving up as easily.
(Just as Eldar ought to flee rather early... *harumph*)
Ie about breaking and rallying.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

I liked the idea that Squats could making saving throws against hackdown hits for 'Stubborn'.

As a bonus to combat resolution rolls, it seems odd.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

In rolling 2d6 there are 36 possible combinations. Of those combinations there are 11 occurrences of a “1â€Â

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Being able to re-roll 1's is a hugely powerful bonus, meaning that Squat armies will want to Engage under most circumstances.

Are Squats really an army that should have such an incentive to Engage? I thought they were more the 'stand back and shoot' type.

'Making saving throws against hackdown hits' is much more gritty.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

ePilgrim, the statistical analysis is fine and I don't think there are many people who will classify the assault re-roll as unbalanced.  The question is does it seem 'stubborn'?  All the analyses in the world can't quantify the feel of the rule.  

While the rule works fine, I do actually think there are better ideas out there.

I don't like the saving for hackdown kills because it is not really representative of being stubborn either.  Breaking is breaking; it is a loss of organization.  Hackdowns represent being routed (often confused with breaking).  When a formation is brought to this stage it doesn't matter how stubborn they are - they will flee or be cut down as they turn their backs to the enemy and RUN.

Stubborn IMO is a soldier who stands boldly in the face of adversity, regardless of whether it is smart or not.  It is tied to morale which can be defined as either logical or emotional or both.  Since Blast Markers are the only real measurable characteristic of morale in Epic: Armageddon, it stands to reason the stubborn rule should be tied to BM's only.

Ex. Ayone who has seen The Return of the King movie will see examples of stubbornness. As the Orcs are being bombarded by trebuchet launched chunks of granite, the Orc commander tells his men to stand their ground.  At the very last moment he takes a half step to the side as the granite hits the ground and then spits at it.  STUBBORN.

Of course, later on the Orcs are being charged by cavalry and they stand their ground resolute (also stubborn).  But as they all realize that they are about to be killed, the Orcs not only break but are routed, turning their backs and running as the riders of Rohan trample and spear them to death.  Being stubborn did not help them here.

ePilgrim, I know you have done a detailed battery of tests, but from our discussions off line you know that there are combinations of ideas that have never been tried.  You know my ideas so I won't regurgitate it again.

But to drive a point home, this isn't an attempt to beat down on your idea.  If you decide to leave the rule as-is, I think your list will be fine.  It works, it seems balanced.  It also feels wrong and playtesting will change nothing.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

See, I disagree here. Being "broken" in epic represents disorganisation, something the stubborn units will be just as prone to being. Marines get protection against breaking due to their superior training, for example.

Hackdown hits (and kills due to BMs when broken), however, represent units running for the hills and ceasing to be cohesive fighting units. I personally think this is where "stubborn" should kick in, much like how "fearless" kicks in at this point. "stubborn" units aren't as immune to running for the hills as "fearless" units are, but they should be less prone to do so.

For me, "Stubborn" units should break just as easily (i.e become disorganised), but be less likely to be routed (they'll stubbornly hold their ground rather than actually flee), so a save against hackdowns makes sense, as would a rule similar to how TSKNF affects broken marine formations (i.e. 2 bms to cause a kill".

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

as written the Squat/Demiurg Player can re-roll any result of "1" once. they can't reroll both dice due to a single "1" result, just the "1" and only once. if both dice are "1" they can re-roll both, once.

as for timing both players are supposed to roll simultaneously, so the re-roll is after the initial roll.

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

it is not a bonus...it is a potential advantage based on a 25% outcome of the inital roll.

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Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

There are few references to Squats in the fiction.  One such trilogy is the Inquisition War.  I'm only one book in, but the Squat character (Grimm) fights just like I described the Orcs from LOTR.  Stubborn as a mule until he realizes he is in over his head, then he starts praying to his ancestors as he whimpers like a baby.

Just trying to bring some fluff into the justification for my position.

Of course if we use all previous GW material, the old stubborn rule adjusted assaults and then we're back to ePilgrim's idea.  

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Well, I think we're mostly agreed that "stubborn" should be some kind of psychological bonus for the squats/demiurg, but shouldn't make it easier for them to break their opponents like it currently does.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Why not have "stubborn" grant fearless, but only during assaults?

It doesn't make them fight "better", but they don't flee when broken in combat, but can withdraw in good order, but will still disperse when fired on if broken.

Perhaps you can even add the ignores enemies within 30cm when rallying part as well to make it a "fuller" special ability.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

There are few references to Squats in the fiction.  One such trilogy is the Inquisition War.  I'm only one book in, but the Squat character (Grimm) fights just like I described the Orcs from LOTR.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter