What if they had 2x 4+ attacks, only one of which was first strike? They'd only be slightly better in combat than scorpions, and would still have worse armour...

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

That was in the vote that Chroma posted earlier and only got 1 vote. 21 votes went to CC2+. Feel free to test it though.

Why not just clip such small formations with eight Warp Spiders?

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Sure, but you're looking at a 300+ point CC-emphasis formation in CC against a 100-200 points.  So, that's in the 2:1 range before considering any points spent on prep or on getting the Banshees into base contact (transport, aircraft or gates).

Likewise light/no armor is a valid target.

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Neal

just a idea but thought id throw it out there and see what people think,
Leave the cc3+ and for each kill the get inthe first strike phase they gain a attack in the nomal combat phase ?  weather at 3+ or maybe modified  to 5+ or something of the like to represent fending of attacks etc after the intial mask stuns  etc etc.

just a thought.

Tim  NZ

That's not bad, however it IS an extra rule  

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How about giving banshees the sniper ability in addition to their  first strike and leave them at CC 3+.

To my mind this fulfils the role of armour killers (Guard are unaffected, marines save on a 5+) and represents their acrobatic nature.

There is a disadvantage with Sniper in combat though. Sniper attacks would need to be rolled individully per stand and allocated to specific enemy stands so the banshees could only kill units in base contact. If two stands of Banshees both made contact with a single enemy stand and both hit then only that enemy stand could be killed (Under standard CC rules the additional CC hit would roll over onto another enemy stand).

I think it would make the banshees better in mixed aspects but weaker when using any more than 2 stands.

It's a weakness for Tyranid Lictors and to a lesser extent the Broodlord.

Isn't there some way you could work it so that only the -1 to sv is applied?

It's a bugger because to my mind, this is the best way to represent Banshee's role within the eldar army and actually make me want to take them.  I suppose it wouldn't be too much of a disadvantage when Banshees are attacking their target of choice e.g well armoured, elite units such as space marines and terminators and just means that the Eldar player will have to be bang on with his engagement move.

There are a number of parts to this problem that make it difficult to resolve, starting with the "niche" for Banshees. Their acrobatic skills combined with the banshhee mask and powersword give them an almost 'assasin' style ability making them Anti-infanty specialists that should major against the likes of Marines, while doing less well against hordes and armour.

In summary this means close quarter, highpowered strikes against a limited number of infantry.

The problems in achieving this are targeting infantry in an assault without causing the same damage against armoured targets, and surviving retaliation from both the target and the supports to win the resolution (and preferably get away from the counter-attacks to tell the tale)
 

Options
First Strike
Obviously needed, but how much and how applied?
• Assuming the presence of two characters, 10x CC2+ hits will give ~8.3 hits which should put paid to around 4x Marines allowing ~1.5 hits in reply.
• 2x CC4+ will give ~9.0 hits (but could provide as many as 18 if throwing exceptionally well). Allowing these to be First Stike might be considered too powerfull. However letting one attack be First Strike and the other a 'normal' attack is both a little confusing and weaker (fewer First Strike hits allows more normal ones back).
Either way, these FS hits are equally effective against armour and infantry because assaults make no distinction, so probably ought to be less than more.

Sniper though controversial, was something that was discussed along with MW. Unfortunately they are both equally as good against armoured targets. Ignore Cover is a better option as this removes an infantry benefit.

Infiltrate allows the Banshees to assault leaders etc which does seem appropriate, but leaves them stranded after the assault (unless they are accompanied by Wave Serpents).

Probably the most appropriate option was 'Infantry' MW (or 'Infantry' Sniper) where the hits are stronger against infantry targets. Unfortunately this is an extra 'special' rule, so is really a non-starter.

Armour 4+ is certainly worth consideration to reflect their acrobatic abilities (and reducing the impact of Assault hits), though given the precedent in Dark Eldar perhaps 4+ armour in assaults would be the closest.

For what it's worth I would suggest trying adding both Infiltrate and Ignore Cover to the proposed CC2+ First Strike. I would also suggest putting them in Wave Serpents, or trying better armour to see which works better.

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I don't like ignore cover at all, as it does not simulate the effect trying to be achieved.  It makes Banshees better against lightly armoured infantry such as guard and orks but has no practical benefit at all against their supposed target - well armoured infantry.

I can't see the problem with sniper making them better against vehicles, as vehicles should suffer in a CC assault against infantry - also represented by their low CC score.  If a powerblade slices through power armour, it's going to make fairly short work of locks/ hinges allowing grenades etc to be dropped through vision slits etc.

That being said, what about CC 2+ (With FS applied in the unit notes, so that the exarch can benefit too)with an inv save to represent their acrobatic ability?

Especially seeing that there are 5 models to a base. 5 howling banshees with power swords should be able to take out tank tracks. Now 8 bases worth (40 of 'em) could reek serious havoc to most support vehicles.  

I am glad to see this is still being discussed....

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That would mean giving them FS FF...

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Glad to see i'm not the only one who feels this way.  It just strikes me as a bit of a weak argument that it makes them too good against vehicles.  CC specialist infantry SHOULD be good against vehicles if you can actually get them into a position to engage in CC.

For me, Banshees need to have a defined role.  4+ sv just turns them into Scorpions with first strike and 2+ CC just doesn't make me want to bother.

We know what their role is - and that's to mince well armoured infantry units like terminators, obliterators and space marines (Of all flavours)in CC.

The discussion really is how to achieve this.

IMO sniper (Or -1 to sv) is the best option but if that proves impractical, or unworkable within the rules as they stand at present, then i would be in favour of an invulnerable save and CC2+.  As already stated ignore cover does not represent what Banshees do at all and is completely at odds with established background/ the stated aims.

If sniper is added to the unit notes, rather than the CC weapon would that solve the problem of assault hits not being rolled over?  I can see that this would make them FF snipers too but surely this problem could be redressed with a reduction in their FF stat.

So my idea for Banshees would be:

15 cm  SV 5+  CC 3+  FF 6+

Notes: Sniper, First strike.

Or even, as has been suggested previously, MW on the CC attack.

If firedragons can have a 4+ MW FF attack, why would it not be balanced to allow banshees a 3+ CC MW attack, given how much harder it is to get a unit into CC and how much more brutal it is (Especially with only a 5+ sv), since you can't clip.  I'd even consider a decrease in CC stat to 4+ if it was to go to MW with FS.

350 pts for 8 Banshees with 2 Exarchs + the associated transport/support options really should deliver some serious bang for buck.